A call to theologians, seminarians and lay people
As there has been much discussion on the CL site reflecting various interpretations re: the Bible and we have featured books on progressive Christian thought, I have been exploring with several others the idea of creating a special group of folks with sound theological backgrounds. To date 4 have expressed interest. It would be open to seminarians, ordained and lay persons. I'd let you decide if you feel qualified.
The main purpose of the group would be to provide guidance on Biblical interpretation, cite books of interest in biblical studies and the like. We would, by no means, serve as an authoritative body, just offer informed opinions. If we have differing interpretations and world views all the better. This group (for which I have no name at present) would simply serve as a resource to whom individuals could direct questions, ask for reference books and the like.
It could serve as an adjunct to the Academic Review Panel. Anyone interested?
Rich
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Comments
Well it looks like we have a panel!
My heart is truly warmed by the enthusiastic response to the call for theologians, seminarians and lay people. To date, I count 8 potential participants. I say potential as we have some who would like to first explore the idea, then commit. Great! Wonderful.
What I am inviting everyone in this wonderful growing community to participate in is a grand adventure. I can see only a ways down the road, but living my life from a very real knowledge and sense of divine guidance, my heart tells me we have a community of loving, caring, well educated souls who have been guided heere to explore the known and the unknown. On one plane, the intellectual, we have the knowldege from the past to guide us, but on the other, the intuitive, we have adventurous souls who love to walk the road less traveled, who don't know where they are going and just love the fun of the adventure.
We have at least 3 ordained folk, one formerly ordained, 2-3 folks who have engaged in formal religious studies and others who have an avid interest and experience in Biblical interpretaion.
Iiananarchist asked "Into what is the Christianity evolving?" Great question. Let's explore it a bit and see where it takes us. As long as we observe the CrossLeft community's objective of pursuing things that unite us, and the world at large, we should initiate actions that will make a real difference. Talk is fun but action is, well, where the action is, pun intended.
2 invitations. 1st join us next Tuesday on the Academic Review Panel conference call. We'll be discussing the Bonhoffer and Living for Others blog, as a potential white paper. 2nd then set aside the following Tuesday for a conference call of this new group. All calls are scheduled for 8:30 EDT. We schedule them on Tuesdays to avoid conflicting with Wednesday church services, thus encouraging more participation.
All calls are free. Simply dial 605-990-0330 and enter access number 727705#.
Meanwhile let's discuss the intent and execution of the idea more here on line.
May the light, love and wisdom of Our Creator be with us now as it always is and be with us and guide us forevermore in service to the whole of the human family.
Rich
Links to the Bonhoffer and
Links to the Bonhoffer and Living for Others blogs?
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The question that haunts me: "Into what is Christianity evolving?"
Aha!
N/M. Found it.
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The question that haunts me: "Into what is Christianity evolving?"
I'm in (I think)
This sounds like something I would be very interested in. However, I'd really like to see where this is going before I officially commit. Is that possible?
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The question that haunts me: "Into what is Christianity evolving?"
Hmmm.
Okay.
anglobaptist.org, Community Church, One of the Girls
A Sufi Teaching Tool
This Sufi teaching tool feels appropriate while we are discussing the variety of thoughts presented on Crossleft.
THE ANTS & THE PEN
An ant one day strayed across a piece of paper and saw a pen writing in fine, black strokes.
"How wonderful this is!" said the ant. "This remarkable thing with a life of its own, makes squiggles on this beautiful surface, to such an extent and with such energy that it is equal to the efforts of all the ants in the world. And the squiggles which it makes! These resemble ants; not one, but millions, all run together."
He repeated his ideas to another ant, who was equally interested. He praised the powers of observation and reflection of the first ant.
But another ant said,"Profiting, it must be admitted, by your efforts, I have observed this strange object. But I have determined that it is not the master of this work. You failed to notice that this pen is attached to certain other objects, which surround it and drive it on its way. These should be considered as the moving factor, and given the credit." Thus were fingers discovered by the ants.
But another ant, after a long time, climbed over the fingers and realized that they made up a hand, which he thoroughly explored, after the manner of ants, by scrambling all over it.
He returned to his fellows: "Ants!" he cried, "I have news of importance for you. Those smaller objects are part of a large one. It is this which gives motion to them."
But then it was discovered that the hand was attached to an arm, and the arm to a body, and that there feet which did no writing.
The investigations continue. Of the mechanics of the writing, the ants have a fair idea. Of the meaning and intention of writing, and how it is ultimately controlled, they will not find out by their customary method of investigation. Because they are "literate."
----Taken from Robert Ornstein's PSYCHOLOGY OF CONSCIOUSNESS in which he is quoting Idries Shah, CARAVAN OF DREAMS.
My take on this Sufi story is that we must learn to rise above the black and white facts before us (which the intellect perceives) and view the whole with our intuitive minds. The investigations of the Bible continue! And what variety we behold!
For the Bible tells me so
This idea seems appealing. I've journeyed from Evangelicalism to progressive Christianity, so I have some perspective I'm glad to offer.
The one issue to watch out for is simply proof-texting in response to proof-texting. We can all cherry-pick texts to support our views. It is more valuable to contextualize our views in a larger understanding of scripture.
I agree that we should avoid debating each other, but I also have little hope for any debate with Evangelicals since the differences in the premises are always going to keep us from common ground around differences. Thankfully, we have been able to focus on actions that unite here at CL and so there are some with Evangelical theology among us who are supporting progressive issues.
All that being said, I would be glad to offer insight from my theological training around issues of Biblical interpretation (I'm a bit of a Greek geek as well, although my Hebrew is very rusty).
Proof texting
Ian,
I'm always puzzled when someone mentions "proof texting." In my experience working with Christians in the church, they always want to see a verse in the Bible that backs up what I am saying. Anytime an author presents a topic or a minister preaches a sermon, a portion of scripture is quoted.
I know that in seminary we were taught to consider the context and the purpose of the writer. However, we all know that the original writers did not know they were writing Scripture ... they were writing to express their view of things. This is not to say that divine inspiration was absent; I believe it was very much present. But each human channel for that inspiration also filtered the concepts through his/her own knowledge and preconceptions. Each writer wrote truth as he/she perceived it and remembered it. So, like you imply, we can always find a verse that suits our need to verify that the concept is in the Bible. I simple consider that one facet of the truth within a sacred book that holds many.
I had the fact of previous lives verified to me when an ocean wave picked me up and threw me on the beach. The jolt sent me into a past life on the continent of Atlantis in which I did drown. It really made no difference to me whether or not the Bible mentioned reincarnation; I knew from my own experience.
Would love to hear your ideas on proof texting. I think it is a subject that needs to be in the open on Crossleft.
I'm thrilled that you are a Greek geek. Studying Greek and Hebrew were very difficult for me and I've forgotten most of what I learned. Still have all the text and reference books, but it is a laborious job to use them.
Community standards
Isn't that what judges talk about when defining pornography and then go on to say that whether or not they can define it in advance that know it when they see it? That's my convoluted way of saying how I define proof-texting. My primary concern is the "big picture" of scripture. If I hear a case built on a variety of verses that runs counter to the general themes of scripture I am suspicious. Of course, the issue might be more in the biases that we bring to our reading of the texts, so it is anything but simple.
Essentially, we do need to be cautious any time we are reading a single verse or a short passage since it was not intended to stand alone (unless it is a proverb or the like).
The bottom line is that we approach the task with open minds and humility.
Studying the Bible
Ian,
I think we are addressing a very in-depth subject---regarding proof-texting. Because I have studied portions of the Old Testament metaphysically, I know there are layers of hidden wisdom within it. I do not perceive the New Testament to be so written. In fact, when I read the New Testament, I'm conscious that the Church Fathers manipulated it, added and subtracted, and selected the books included according to their own biased opinions. In my four semesters of church history, I never got the feeling that prayer for guidance was part of the decision-making process. Hopefully, it was; but, what is abundantly evident in the history is that they argued viciously and got very personal in their mean accusations.
I know from translating the Greek and Hebrew in seminary classes that the translations are done according to the bias of the translator. Being the rebel that I am, I would deliberately translate using meanings listed in the lexicon, but not normally used. The class laughed, but I was never corrected.
Because I put the Bible down for years and studied metaphysics instead, I can view the Bible from a different perspective ... I can see more in it than I did previously. An example is reading the Bible through the lens of knowledge of reincarnation. Even though I grew up in a church where serious Bible study was a daily occurrence and attended two years of seminary---always taking as many Bible courses as I could manage---I never saw the evidence of reincarnation until I studied metaphysics and came back to the Bible. I was shocked at how much more I could see---on many subjects---upon picking up the Bible again. 30 years after my first seminary studies, I attended another seminary and had a totally different experience. That's where I was the rebel.
That's why I am suspicious of the concept of "proof texting." It feels more like a disinformation tactic ... a way of dismissing an individual's insight. I would much prefer to accept each person's selected verses as what they are ... meaningful "fits" into the truth that person perceives.
I paid little attention to form criticism in seminary. It is too sterile. For me, the Bible is alive, packed with symbolism, and its depths unfathomable---especially the Old Testament.
The Essenes (or Sons of Light) offer a wonderful example for Progressive Christians. I quote from Kenneth Hanson's WORDS OF LIGHT: SPIRITUAL WISDOM FROM THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS.
"The Sons of Light ... the study they undertook ... was a battle of sorts. It involved a great cosmic conflict in which the members of the covenant were to take part. They were to play an active role in a metaphysical battle, and they did so by nothing more or less profound than the study they engaged in. In study they became part of a greater reality, an eternal purpose. They not only improved themselves, but they also released energy into the cosmos, which in turn would affect the higher realms, over and above all."
"They were asked to submit their minds to discipline. Yet this was no blind submission, for this kind of study involved questioning, reflecting on, and wrestling with every word of the sacred text."
"The Sons of Light were not all great sages, but every one of them could read and write. They were all devoted students, thinking for themselves, and this fact was one of their greatest strengths. Each of them was trained in finding the desert path, and they understood that people so educated can never be enslaved... For one who trains the mind is a very poor subject for imposed tyranny. There is freedom in study, liberty in the acquisition of wisdom... This is why the Sons of Light were taught to wrestle with the holy texts."
The "Many" of the Essenes studied in groups of no less than ten people. Varying interpretations are essential in doing battle with the holy texts!
first reader
I don't have the knowledge or the training or the theology, but I make a great first reader. Editing is the second skill listed in the old resume. (Yes, being a smart-mouth is the first skill. Not really but it should be.)
Biblical support
Rich,
I will be glad to offer support. If you have read my blogs, you know that I have moved outside the church in my search for Truth. I do have 6 yrs. of seminary under my belt, plus 40 years of metaphysical research that greatly impacts my writings. I offer metaphysical interpretations of the Bible, seeking to delve beneath the surface words.
I believe this resource committee will be of great importance as the changes that I know will soon occur become known to the general public. The church will have to relate. For example: the open appearance of our galactic family.
I stopped debating religion years ago. I simply offer my findings as an eternal researcher and student.
I'm in
Count me in.
Rev. Roger - welcome
Rev. Roger,
Wonderful. First of all, I don't recall reading any blogs from you. Please, introduce yourself. I'd very much like us to get to know you better.
Second, how would you like to see the group develop, what approach to take?. I see the group as a support group, not a debating society. What thinketh thou?
Rich
greetings and etc.
Thanks for the welcome. I only recently found CrossLeft, and just moved a couple of blog posts from my old blog. I am co-pastor of a very small church in AL (very near the buckle of the Bible Belt), where we find ourselves alternatively scorned and welcomed by others in the community. In that, I suppose all is as it should be. :-)
As a now-independent church we have found it very useful to connect to the broader progressive movement, so that we all can join our voices to address issues of concern. As a result, we have begun forming an alliance of progressive congregations (suitably enough www.progressivechristianalliance.org) in the hopes that we can find greater strength in unity, while promoting charity in all things.
You'll hear more from me later, but to answer your question; I would much prefer a support group. I am not opposed to debate, but frankly we progressives virtually have to debate those on the right, and too-often choose to debate our friends on the left rather than seeking and defending our common ground.
Peace,
Roger
Biblical Interpretation
I would hope that the focus of the group would be Biblical support for Porgressive politics and not discussion about one's own particular views on transubstiantion or speaking in tongues or the laying on of hands for healing, etc.
We can debate such items on the site itslef or elsewhere. I think the goal of the group should be the same as Crossleft's . Otherwise we become a debating group.
Biblical support for progressive ideals
Not to worry, I would like the group to provide biblical support, not be a debating society. So ya'll in Big Jim?
Rich
I am in
I am in. Jim