Israel and their right to the land.
Israel and their right to the Land
Genesis 15:7-21
And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
And he took him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Eurphrates:
The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
a. Notice carefully in verse 12 that “when the sun was going down”, Abram fell into “a deep sleep”. In verse 17, “when the sun went down, and it was dark…a smoking furnace and a burning lamp…passed between those pieces.”
b. According to Jeremiah 34:18, the participants of the covenant walk between the animals and profess the words of the covenant.
1). Jeremiah 34:18 “And I will give the men that have transgressed my covenant, which have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me, when they cut the calf in twain, and passed between the parts thereof.”
c. The added element is Ezekiel 47:14, “And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers:”
d. The participants who walked in between the pieces in this case were “a smoking furnace and a burning lamp”. I personally believe they were two of the Persons of Godhead, the LORD God and the LORD God, i.e. the person of the Godhead we have come to know as Father God and the other Person was the pre-incarnate Christ.
1). Hebrews 12:29 “For our God is a consuming fire.”
2). Psalm 119:105 “Thy word is a lamp, and a light unto my path.”
3). John 1:1, 14 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”…”And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…”
c. The words spoken were, “Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
1). In light of that we see The First Person of the Godhead speaking to the Second Person of the Godhead.
d. The cutting of the covenant took place on the plains of Mamre right outside present day Hebron, within the so called “West Bank”.
Galatians 3:16, 17
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
a. The giving of the law was 430 years after the Covenant of Genesis 15.
b. Israel arrived at Sinai in the third month after coming out of Egypt, within the 430th year.
1).Exodus 19:1 “In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.”
c. All translations that I checked, (Amplified, NASB, NRSV, and NIV) they all clearly say Israel was in Egypt 430 years. For example, the New American Standard Bible says in Exodus 12:40, “Now the time that the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years.”
d. The Genesis Record, Henry M. Morris. “Galatians 3:17, however, suggests that the 430 year period was from the time of the covenant with Abraham until the giving of the Law on Mount Sinai. This, in turn suggests that Genesis 15:13 can be interpreted: “Thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and [all the people among whom they dwell, both Canaanites and Egyptians] shall afflict them four hundred years.” Similarly, Exodus 12:40 can be understood as follows: “Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was [altogether, that is, from the time of the covenant until they left Egypt] four hundred and thirty years.”
e. If you look closely at the King James translation, it really does not state clearly that Israel was in Egypt four hundred and thirty years. It could be understood to mean, that their “sojourning” was four hundred and thirty years and at the end of the 430 years which occurred while they were in Egypt, the sojourning ended.
f. In fact, the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of Hebrew Old Testament, written around 200-300 B.C., includes the time in Canaan with the time in Egypt in the 430 years.
1). Exodus 12:40, “And the sojourning of the children of Israel, while they sojourned in the land of Egypt and the land of Canaan was four hundred and thirty years.”
g. The interesting twist is that it was 430 years to the day.
1). Exodus 12:41 “And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.”
h. Israel came out of Egypt on the 14th of Nisan the first Passover, according to the Jewish calendar. Jesus was crucified on the 14th of Nisan according to the Jewish calendar. If we do the math backwards 430 years to the day from Israel coming out of Egypt, we can see that the Covenant of Genesis 15 was performed on the 14th of Nisan. Since that is true, the implications are profound.
1). God has a calendar that I believe he has operated by since creation. Scripturally, we can prove that He has operated within that calendar since the Covenant of Genesis 15. God gave that calendar, with all the Sabbaths, new moons, feasts and festivals to his Covenant people at Sinai: Exodus 12:1-28; Leviticus 23. These elements of the calendar were shadows of what God would do through Christ: the body casting the shadow is Jesus Christ, Colossians 2:16, 17. Jesus crucified on Passover, the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, etc., When Jesus comes back, at least one of the Feasts, i.e., the Feast of Tabernacles, will be reinstituted as a requirement for the whole world, Zechariah 14:16-19. Eventually the whole world will governed by this calendar as evidenced by Isaiah 66:23 “And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.”
i. God promised He would bring them back into the land.
1. Deuteronomy 30:1-6 (5)
2. Scripture implies Israel would be brought back into the land before their regeneration as a nation: Ezekiel 36:24, 25. That is where we are at right now.
3. Isaiah 62:4, 5 God is married to Israel and the land.
4. Jeremiah 12:14 calls Israel’s neighbors evil if they try to touch their inheritance.
5. Ezekiel 36:1-15 is a passage referring to the “mountains of Israel”. A good Atlas that details the elevations of the area around Israel will show that the mountains of Israel, except the area of the Golan Heights, match perfectly the area called the West Bank.
j. Ezekiel 36:5 God is speaking in the fire of his jealously because he is married to Israel and the land.
1. Zephaniah 3:8, The fire of the LORD’S jealously.
2. Joel 3:2 Every nation that participates in the dividing up of the land will be brought down to the valley of Jehoshaphat and judged.
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Comments
A Christian
Eileen,
How does a person who is not a Christian become a Christian? Why are you my sister in Christ? What happens to make you and I, who have never met, are not related in any way through blood; what makes us brother and sister?
Really there is only one question in all this. How do I become a Christian?
Don
What JC said
The term 'Christian' was not even coined until the days of Paul, about 3 decades after Jesus walked the earth a man.
Jesus never said to go out and make Christians.
JC said:
"Go OUT and make Disciples!"
A disciple is one who DOES what the Master taught.
JC said "my sisters and brothers and mother are those that DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER!"
+
"What does God require? He has told you o'man!
Be just, be merciful, and walk humbly with your Lord." -Micah 6:8
The early followers and lovers of Jesus were called members of THE WAY-being THE WAY he taught and what is NON-NEGOTIABLE for his followers:
Remain Nonviolent-even if mocked, whipped and nailed to a cross, be a Peacemaker and do the will of the Father.
Now, i hope to blow your mind with what i was lead to uncover:
*Wisdom has built her house and SHE calls to all; "Come, eat my food and drink my wine and you will live abundant life and walk in the ways of understanding." [*Proverbs 9: 4-6]
Wisdom calls; "I have built it; will you come? Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear?
Holy Wisdom, the Feminine Divinity: Hokema,
Who was with The Word from the very beginning,
She is One with Him and He with Her;
Pure Being; One God;
One Creator; One Lover of All the Human Family...
Let me tell a little story to illuminate you, if you haven't heard the one about the Rabbi Hillel,
Who lived 100 years before Christ walked the earth
Rabbi Hillel knew that the Hebrew understanding of Hokema;
Holy Wisdom;
The Feminine Divinity
Was the same as the Greek understanding of
The Logos:
The Word.
It was the first Paul and John who first understood:
The Word was good and
The Word was
The Logos
The Word is The Christ.
It was John on Rubber Soul who intuitively knew:
"The Word is just The Way and The Word is Love"
Listen to me +
Use your imagination,
For as William Blake understood:
"IMAGINATION is EVIDENCE of The Divine"
Before Christ walked the earth a man,
He was already a SHE:
Hokema, Holy Wisdom; the Feminine Divinity
Now, isn't that Good News?
The God Head is One Pure Being;
as much male as female
as much mommy as daddy.
And we are all children of Her Universe;
And **He is the oldest personality because He is the origin of everything;
and everything is born of Him.
He is the supreme controller of the universe,
the maintainer and instructor of humanity.
He is smaller than the smallest.[**Bhagavad-Gita]
He indwells the heart of every atom and
She is beyond the Universe.
Wisdom is calling,
She is rattling your windows and shaking your walls
With some more good news of the
three witnesses,
and three always beats one
and not just that,
I've got a fourth.
Get out your Good Book sisters and brothers and chew on this;
Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29, and Luke 12:10
are simpatico with gnostic Thomas saying 44:
'Jesus said: "Whoever blasphemes against the father will be forgiven, whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either on earth or in heaven."
Listen to me, God is within every sister, brother and all Creation,
Wake up to your own divinity and
Get a clue Christian:
His ways are not your ways and Her thoughts are not your thoughts
Dominion never meant to rape and plunder,
but to nurture, care and love
And if you have not love, you have nothing at all
And on that final day we all will stand naked before The Creator
And we have been warned that there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth
by those who were so sure they were in, because they are the ones left out.
WAKE UP Christian!
Hear the wind begin to howl.
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
setting the record straight for the umpteenth time
I have repeatedly written that I denounce all violence.
I have repeatedly written I do not care who wears the uniform or how noble they believe their cause; anytime an innocent one is caught in the crossfire of violence they are terrorized.
I have been called by the Mystery we call God to be a voice for the voiceless and that is why i focus on shining the light on the flagrant abuses Israel- in collusion with USA govt.- have inflicted upon the Palestinians.
The USA MSM does a great job of reporting about the violence the Palestinians have done, so i see no need for me to do so.
And for the umpteenth time the FACTS are that Israel is the MORE VIOLENT!:
1,027 Israelis and at least 4,345 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
119 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 971 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
7,633 Israelis and 31,531 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. And 18,000 since 1967!
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000.
Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.
LEARN MORE:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
Who is firing these rockets
[Don's question: Who is firing these rockets?]
Ten Children in Shock After Kassam Slams Near School
by Hillel Fendel
Ten children, and eight others, are suffering from trauma in the Negev city of Sderot after a Kassam rocket slammed down just 40 meters from an elementary school. The attack occured around 11 AM.
One pupil reported that when the Color Red early warning system was sounded, his teacher told the class to remain in their seats because the class was reinforced. However, when they heard the crash and realized how close it had hit, some students and teachers began crying. The school's psychological and counseling staff is currently being bolstered with staff from other schools and nearby cities.
The fear that a Kassam could hit a crowded school had been on everyone's minds, and the realization that a major catastrophe had been so narrowly avoided was on everyone's mind. Some parents arrived to pick up their children early.
Two other Kassams were fired at the Negev earlier this morning, and another one landed near Ashkelon. Several mortar shells were also fired, but no damage was caused in these attacks.
The IDF reports that 165 Kassam rockets and mortar shells have been fired at Israel - mostly Sderot and environs - just this month alone; this is an average of over eight rockets or shells per day.
IDF forces entered Gaza overnight in an anti-terror offensive, and killed at least four terrorists. Though the forces were fired upon, no Israeli casualties were reported.
Precisely as the Kassam rocket landed near the school, Chief IDF Intelligence Officer Brig.-Gen. Halamish was speaking at a Tel Aviv University event, saying the IDF does not have a comprehensive solution to fight Kassam rockets.
[Don's question:Is not Israel allowed to defend themselves against such attacks?]
Don
let's get real Don
The IDF is one of the most well equipped armies in the history of the world.
The IDF controls the entire Palestinian population and international law is on their side, for it states occupied people have the right to rise up and fight against their occupiers.
When the 40 years of Occupation of Palestine ends the rockets will stop too!
Published on December 20, 2007 by Associated Press and from which i excerpt:
Hamas Leader Appeals For Truce With Israel
by Sarah El Deeb
GAZA CITY, Gaza City - On Islam’s most important holiday, the leader of Gaza’s Hamas government appealed today for a ceasefire with Israel and said his people - battered by Israeli military strikes and international sanctions - are greeting this year’s feast with “tears in our eyes.”
...Israel and Hamas have never had direct contacts because of the group’s violently anti-Israel ideology. But they have agreed to short truces negotiated by third parties.
The appeal from Ismail Haniyeh, who heads the Hamas government in Gaza, came in a phone call to an Israeli TV reporter, said Hamas spokesman Taher Nunu. It followed a two-day air assault by Israeli forces that killed 12 Gaza militants, two from Hamas and 10 from Islamic Jihad.
Israel “should stop its attacks and siege,” Nunu said. “Then a truce would be possible, and not unlikely.”
Hamas officials said they were working with other militant groups to try to stop the rocket fire into Israel and also sent overtures to Israel through unidentified third parties.
...After the Hamas takeover, Israel closed the borders to all but minimum essentials, and Egypt also shut its only crossing with Gaza. The result has been further hardship for the poverty-stricken territory.
Speaking at a sparsely attended Wednesday prayer gathering at a Gaza soccer stadium for the beginning of the Eid al-Adha festival, Haniyeh blamed Israel for the sour atmosphere, referring to Israel’s latest air assault.
“The Palestinians greet the feast differently from the other Muslim nations - with martyrs, with members of resistance dying, because of the crimes of the Zionist occupation,” he said. “We greet it with tears in our eyes and sadness in our hearts.”
The Eid al-Adha festival commemorates the ancient story of Abraham and his readiness to sacrifice his son, rendered in the Qur’an as Ishmael, as an act of obedience to God, who provided a lamb to be offered instead. Main features of the holiday are slaughtering animals and giving gifts, but both have been curtailed this year because of shortages caused by the tight cordon around Gaza.
Outside their home in the upscale Gaza City neighbourhood of Rimal, the Hamad family gathered to slaughter a cow after prayers, using a small crane to lift the 400-kilogram animal. One-third of the meat is traditionally distributed to the needy.
Although he paid 25 per cent more for the cow than in the past, Alaa Hamad said he will give out more than the required third to poor neighbours. “Poverty now is a general phenomenon,” he said.
Umm Ahmed Abu Assem, 50, said she had to sell her gold bracelet for $220 to buy her children a sheep to slaughter. “There is so much shortage as it is,” she said.
People were trying to make do with what they have, substituting traditional feast staples with local goods. Chocolate has not been coming in, so strawberries, abundant in the market because of an export ban, featured high in holiday handouts.
© 2007 Associated Press
And so this is CHRISTmas and what have you done?
e
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
no justification for terrorism
As much as I disagree with Don's Christian Zionist position, there's no justification for terrorism Eileen. None. By saying something like "When the occupation stops the rockets will stop too" is zealotry and supporting violence as a resolution to the problem. You really hurt your credibility with suck talk.
And the fact that you continue to only address the Israeli side while excusing terrorism from the Palestinian side is troubling.
The peaceful revolts of other oppressed people in the world should be the example (King, Gandhi, Tutu). The use of violence against opporessors has not proven to be all that effective within the last century.
Ironically, both Eileen and Don both want a one state solution each under much different and unrealistic terms, while moderates on both sides would prefer a two state solution.
I have NEVER excused violence
You have made false accusations against me before Stephen.
I challenge you to cite anything i have ever written to back up your claims, for your credibility is in question when you twist what i write and ignore the meat of what i say.
WAKE UP! The root of the violence in the Holy land is 40 years of OCCUPATION, the denial of human rights and international law!
Just what would you do, if Russia occupied America? What would you do, if your family was forced from their home for fear of their life? That is what happened to Palestinians in 1948, 1967 and continues on and on and on, because good people do nothing!
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
i'm glad you finally denounced Palestinian terrorism
Eileen, its about time...its the first time i've seen in it your countless posts on the topic.
Your argument would be a heck of a lot better if you presented a more balanced view that took into account the valid concerns of the Israelis living amongst hostile neighbors. They've been invaded a couple of times and there are still Arab leaders who insist that Israel has no right to exist. There are still Palestinians who say the same and use violence to achieve that goal. I have encouraged you ever since you have joined this site to offer a more balanced view as people will take your arguments a lot more seriously. Failing to do so makes you look like a zealot and folks get frustrated with zealotry which is part of the reason for you being banned from other liberal and progressive sites.
This doesn't excuse Israeli oppression, but I do believe its important to acknowledge that both sides have a valid set of concerns. You can't have a peace process or fruitful discussions without both sides acknowledging from where the other is coming. The peace process in Northern Island and the ending of apartheid and the reconcilliation process in South Africa are examples in this respect.
re terrorism, justification
The way I read it, Eileen's coment that the rockets will stop when the occupation stops is more of a description of the way things are than they are a justification of rocket attacks against civilians.
Where international law is clear is that killing Israeli IDF forces or attacking supply and communication lines is justifiable resistance. (Effectiveness is another matter, as is morality as seen from our perspective.)
What suicide bombings and the more or less random rocket attacks show is that the forces of the two sides are asymmetrical: the real power is on the Israeli side. Despite this, armed resistance is likely to continue until the occupation ends. Requiring it to stop before full negotiations can proceed has always been a formula for maintaining the occupation and all its oppressiveness.
I think the only thing that's unrealistic about a one-state solution is the intransigence of the Israelis. That's what makes it unlikely to happen except as the end point of a long process that might never even get started.
there's never been a condemnation of the violence
Bill, The Israelis have shown themselves willing to negotiate even in the midst of terrorist attacks. This decision changes based on how much pressure that the US puts on Israel and who is in charge of the government.
The one state solution is just not looked at as a viable alternative by most policy makers and moderates on both sides. To put the blame solely at the Israelis feet is misguided as most Palestinians want their own state (of course a sizable subset want that state without Israel). I think a one state solution is frankly a pipe dream of the extremes on both sides.
Hamas still has not renounced terrorism as a means of interaction with the Israelis...that's just plain wrong. Let's be clear, many of the attacks have not targeted the IDF. They've targetted civilian populations with the intent to kill many civilians. If we Christians are against violence than we have to stop excusing it on the Palestinian side as we condemn the Israelis for their actions.
As for Eileen, I have heard plenty of what the Israelis have done wrong, but I have never heard any analysis of the other side in two respects:
1. A condemnation of violence as a way to achieve the aims of the Palestinians. Indiscriminate terrorist attacks on civilian targets is unacceptable and does not lead to any hope for peace.
2. An acknowledgement of the range of opinion and action on the Palestinian side, and a condemnation of Hamas's continued adherence to terrorism as a tool for making their case.
re: condemnation of the violence
re: "Let's be clear, many of the attacks have not targeted the IDF. They've targetted civilian populations with the intent to kill many civilians. If we Christians are against violence than we have to stop excusing it on the Palestinian side as we condemn the Israelis for their actions."
Agreed. My writing wasn't clear: I was trying to make a distinction between attacking the IDF which is "legitimate" and the suicide bombs/rocket attacks, which are not.
The latter occur because of the asymmetric military alignment of forces which makes the legitimate forms of resistance very difficult.
Although I believe the attacks on civilian are counter-productive as well as ethically wrong, I also believe that the asymmetry of power and violence does warrant a focus on Israeli violence as the main problem, both practically and ethically.
The USA has 'ethical leverage' over Israel but not over Hamas. Therefore, I see our ethical duty is to work to change Israel's policies. Condemning Hamas' violence is fine but it's mostly pro forma. There's little we can do about it directly. Analytically speaking, it's a derivative of the larger situation which I continue to see as colonial one.
why i don't think its pro forma
Bill,
To me, the dynamics of engaging in a peace process must include each side acknowledging wrong doing. Both sides have definitely done their share and while the Israelis hold the power position they also have the greater burden than any other nation in history in terms hostile neighbors.
Many American Jewish friends share some of these very real concerns about terrorism and the hostility of Israel's neighbors. If we Christian Americans are going to have a positive sway in convincing the Israelis and their Jewish brethern around the world to deal with the oppression of the Palestinians, than I think we need to acknowledge their legitimate concerns upfront.
Israel acts out of fear of terrorism or the threats to their nation. I'm not saying the actions are always justified, but it certainly helps to acknowledge that the oppression is not because folks are evil, but rather scared about their own well-being.
A balanced approach that acknowledges the legitimate grievances of both sides is the only way to peace. The US can pressure Israel to the table but must do so in a way that respects its concerns. I would disagree though about the Palistinians. I believe that the US can also put pressure on Fatah and Hamas to denounce terrorism while acknowledging that their very difficult position. The US can also pressure our Arab allies in the region (many of whom have not be so welcoming to the Palestinians) to pressure the Palestinian parties. The next US President must take this kind of leadership if we are to ever hope for a peaceful Middle East.
Why I use the words "pro forma"
Stephen,
Being rather tired, I won't try to write one organized and continuous comment but instead will just respond point by point. My apologies.
You wrote:
"To me, the dynamics of engaging in a peace process must include each side acknowledging wrong doing. Both sides have definitely done their share and while the Israelis hold the power position they also have the greater burden than any other nation in history in terms hostile neighbors."
-- I have to disagree with the last part of this premise. The Shoah was unique in its organization and technology. But otherwise I don't see any Jewish or Israeli exceptionalism here. I'm not prepared to go through every other nation in history but little nations have been ground up by other nations (including ancient Israel and Judea being overpowered repeatedly by empires) ever since there were statelets, nations, and empires. And when one thinks of tribal 'nations' just within the USA, they were neighbored by a hostile superpower that carried out what might have been the world's most effective genocide against a large population, on a percentage basis and carried out over a long period of time. (Tasmania, however, might be the one greatest genocide, as the settlers killed them off completely, organizing hunting parties to exterminate them.) In all such cases, people naturally feel uniquely stressed and pressured.
"Many American Jewish friends share some of these very real concerns about terrorism and the hostility of Israel's neighbors. If we Christian Americans are going to have a positive sway in convincing the Israelis and their Jewish brethern around the world to deal with the oppression of the Palestinians, than I think we need to acknowledge their legitimate concerns upfront."
-- People in the USA have legitimate concerns about terrorism. Nevertheless, the terrorism is a form of blowback against the USA's policies. It's not going to go away unless the USA's policies change. I think the same applies to Israel. I'm all for acknowledging US and Israeli fears. There are many real dangers out there. But we need to find a way to explain, in a way that can be heard, the connection between those fears and the policies which have done so much to create the dangerous situations. That's a difficult thing to do because the analysis is never likely to wind up being even-handed from everyone's point of view. No one wants to accept the bulk of the blame or to make policy changes except under the greatest duress. And great duress is more likely to stiffen resistance than to lead to policy changes. It's not a happy prospect.
"Israel acts out of fear of terrorism or the threats to their nation. I'm not saying the actions are always justified, but it certainly helps to acknowledge that the oppression is not because folks are evil, but rather scared about their own well-being."
-- I've not claimed that any of the folks are evil. I'm more concerned about "structural evils" than I am with placing individual blame or with imputing personal sin and evil. However, I do like the words "pathocracy" and "pathocrat", as in 'the USA has become a pathocracy' and 'George W. Bush is a pathocrat." I see leaders like Sharon and probably Arafat as pathocrats.
-- There's another point, though. In part, Israel acts out of a Zionist project that, in its origin, contemplated the displacement of the native population. I remember the slogan that I heard as a youth: "a land without people for a people without a land".
"A balanced approach that acknowledges the legitimate grievances of both sides is the only way to peace."
-- That's okay so long as the definition of a balanced approach doesn't require that every criticism of one side must be matched by an exactly equivalent criticism of the other side. I often get the feeling that the call for a balanced approach is based on a feeling that imputing unequal responsibility for a mess is inherently unfair, regardless of what an objective analysis might produce.
"The US can pressure Israel to the table but must do so in a way that respects its concerns."
-- Israel is a client state. The USA has great leverage should it choose to use it. Naturally, to be effective, pressure should be combined with tact and skillful PR. But it's still likely that US and Israel interests and concerns would diverge on many points. There's no getting around the political difficulties. However, this is all hypothetical unless the USA changes course radically. There's no sign of that. With or without Israel, and with or without the influence of the Israel lobby, USA policy is to dominate the region. I expect that will continue regardless of who becomes president. Unless the next administration comes to see Israel as more of a liability than an asset, it's hard to see anything more than cosmetic changes.
" I would disagree though about the Palistinians. I believe that the US can also put pressure on Fatah and Hamas to denounce terrorism while acknowledging that their very difficult position."
-- This is the point which led me to use "pro forma". Primarily, I meant it to apply to our discussions, and similar public discussions. We, as mere people, have little we can say to admonish Palestinians. We have little enough impact on our own government. Therefore, anything we say against terrorism is pro forma. To require Eileen, or others, to make repeated references to Palestinian terrorism in an effort to remain balanced is, in my opinion, to require a kind of ritualistic exercise. This is especially so when one considers that references to US and Israeli state terrorism are generally considered unacceptably radical and biased.
"In a similar vein, the US government can urge Fatah and Hamas to denounce terrorism."
-- I consider this also to be basically pro forma. The USA is already pressuring them by our unconditional support of Israel. The USA would have to promise them that it will put real pressure on Israel and that, therefore, a renunciation of terrorism would be a smart, constructive move. Such a renunciation can't be demanded in advance. It would have to be preceded by real changes initiated by the USA and Israel.
"The US can also pressure our Arab allies in the region (many of whom have not be so welcoming to the Palestinians) to pressure the Palestinian parties. The next US President must take this kind of leadership if we are to ever hope for a peaceful Middle East."
-- The USA is already applying pressure against Hamas every way it can. Our next president will presumably do more of the same and continue in the Way of Discord, not the Way of Peace.
general response
Bill, I wont' go point counter point here, but did want to honor your comments with a response.
I guess at the end of the day, I'm still not sure how you actually make peace in the Middle East without acknowledging and dealing with the real concerns of both sides. The Iraelis have been attacked in 2 full blown wars and have dealt almost non-stop with terrorist attacks and the occasioanl rockets being lobbed into their country from Lebanon, the occupied territories and Iraq. If Israel is going to make concessions in the peace process, its security will have to be and indeed should be a top issue.
You provided all the geo-political concerns about Zionism and Israel being a client state, etc. but at the end of the day, peace will have to come with Israel having some sense of security and the Palestinians having autonomy and self governance without future threat of oppression.
Any peace process that does not involve one side completely conquering the other, requires that both sets of concerns are dealt with. Northern Ireland is an excellent example, but so are the reconcilliation process in places like Rwanda and South Africa are good examples.
I agree completely
Excellent. I see no contradictions between these words and mine.
Perhaps in all the discussions here about Israel and Palestine the differences are simply those of style and emphasis. I don't see where any of us would take exception to these comments of yours.
At the end of the day, however, I'm still not at all convinced that both sets of concerns will ever be dealt with honestly and thoroughly by the main players.
Nevertheless, peace, shalom, salaam. May the Peace of the Lord be with us all.
The land
Eileen
There is so much in your post that I could can't comment on all of it.Let me say this though, i am not ignoring Genesis 21:17-20. I believe that Ishmael is a prophetic name, it means "God shall hear". God heard the prayer of the lad in Genesis 21:17 and I believe he is hearing the prayers of arabs who are truly crying out to know the one true God. Not Allah! I believe you and I are going to see thousands of arabs, descendants of Ishmael coming to faith in Jesus Christ! You are correct, we cannot ignore Genesis 21, but we cannot ignore Genesis 17:20, 21 either.In these two verses God is speaking and he says, "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he begat, and I will make him a great nation. BUT MY COVENANT WILL I ESTABLISH WITH ISAAC,which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."
Eileen, the covenant was between God and Abraham through Isaac. Yes God said he would bless the rest of Abraham's descendants. But the covenant of that specific piece of real estate would go to Isaac's children. Why do you think all that oil is underneath Arab land? I believe its a fulfillment of the blessing of God promised to Abraham in Genesis.
I am against a two state solution. I believe that arabs can and should live in Israel, but as Israeli citizens under their authority.
Don
Don's One State- Questions
I almost missed this post in reading the others. You have the same one state solution as Eileen's, but as a large Israel rather than a joint Israel/Palestin state. If Arabs live as citizens within a larger Israeli state, what assurances will there be that these Arabs are not relegated to being second class citizens? You wrote that these Arab citizens should live under the Israeli authority. What political rights would they have? How would they redress any wrong doing against them? Would they have representation in the Israeli Knessett?
I'm asking these questions to probe, not for any hostile intent. One thing that popped in my head when I read about Arabs submitting to Israeli authorities is the second class citizenship of African Americans during the Jim Crow era. Theoretically, they were supposed to have "separate but equal" facilities, but in actuality, they had substandard facilities and faced legal prejudice. Without political rights, African Americans in the South had no way to redress the situation. I worry that Arab citizens in a large Israeli state would suffer similar indignities unless they were granted equal rights under the law.
Israeli Arab citizens and Unrecognized Villages
How very progressive of you Don to be for a one state solution!
Did you know there are over 100,000 Arab Israeli citizens who are to this very day denied equal rights but pay taxes?
When I was in lower Nazareth in 2006, [upper is for Jewish settlers only] I met with Mohammad Zeidan, the General Director of HRA/Arab Association for Human Rights: http://www.arabhra.org
The HRA was founded in 1988 in order to defend and promote social, cultural, economic, political, and civil rights for Palestinian Israeli citizens.
Their methods are nonviolent and their ideology is based upon International Human Rights instruments.
He informed me:
“Palestinians inside of Israel are 20% of the population and are the remnants of the indigenous peoples who remained after 1948 and received Israeli citizenship, but not equal human rights. They have been marginalized, discriminated against both politically and economically and all live under direct military law, just as in the occupied territories.
"From 1948 to 1966 we all lived under the military regime and were dealt with as enemies. We can vote for the Knesset, but we are not equal citizens because there is one law for the Jews and another for the Arabs. When curfews were imposed, they were only imposed on Arabs. There is no other democracy in the world that discriminates against it’s own citizens.
“From 1948 until 1966, using the British Mandate Military Laws, 60% of Palestinian land was confiscated. From 1966 through today, the military regime has been abolished and one would think that would mean equality and freedom, but it has not happened.
"Arab Israeli’s are discriminated against legally for we are excluded from the privileges every other Israeli citizen receives. There is more weight given to the Jewish state than it’s democratic ideals.
“An example is that Orthodox Jews are exempt from military service but receive every privilege and full benefits of any soldier. No Palestinian Israeli has ever been accepted into the IDF, for we are told we are not wanted.
"This means we are not given the same rights to further our education or obtain a housing loan. All Israeli’s at the age of 18 must serve in the military; it is the law. Since 1948 all the Ministers of the Defense have said to Arab Israeli’s; ‘No thanks, we don’t need you.’
“So, without military service we are denied benefits. We are citizens of Israel and pay taxes and obey the laws but we do not receive basic human rights that every human being deserves, just for being human.
“The discrimination in the public sphere is worsening. Haifa University published a poll of their young Jewish college students and 63% think that population transfer is a good idea. 67% believe Arabs do not deserve equal rights.
“The disengagement plan that is linked to the development of the Negev and Galilee and is supported by President Bush. What it really means is support for Jewish communities against the Arab minority interests although some areas are 50% Arab Israeli’s.”
When I went to the newly recognized village of Ain Hod and ate at the famous Albeit Restaurant, I also had a most enlightening experience.
One must leave the smooth settler’s roads and embark upon a narrow winding rocky unpaved way that edges a cliff with a 300 foot drop to get to the village which was only recognized by the Israeli government just a few months ago.
The owner of the restaurant is Mohammed Abu Haija and he explained to me the upside down illogic of the Unrecognized Villages.
In 1948 when most of the indigenous population fled their homes and property, some citizens held their ground, dug in and have nonviolently endured being treated like sub-human beings.
The Unrecognized Villages are not on any map and yet these people all have Israeli citizenship, pay taxes but receive no services. The Israeli government had deemed these scattered villages as military zones and agricultural areas so homes were demolished, and people live without water, electricity, schools or medical care. Yet the settlers 400 meters away have swimming pools and every comfort known to man.
On the fortieth anniversary of The Declaration of Human Rights in 1988 Mohammed and others formed the “Association of 40" and they have worked in solidarity and nonviolently through the court system to be recognized, to receive water, electricity, roads and human rights.
100 villages populated by over 100,000 Arab Israelis are still living in third world conditions in Israel and remain unrecognized to this very day.
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
the Bible as authoritative
Don,
Your argument here may be well pieced together but it has a fundamental problem. The fact that your underlying assumption, that the Bible is God's word to mankind and thus holds all authority, is going to be rejected by at least one and perhaps both groups involved in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
Imagine if someone of the Hindu religion approached you with an argument that was founded in one or more of their sacred texts in an attempt to persuade you that eating meat is an abomination. Would their argument carry weight with you? I doubt it. In order for an argument to be persuasive, it must somehow address the core values of the person or group to whom you have addressed it. In order for your argument to be effective, you would have to convince the Palestinians and Israelis that 1. our sacred text (the Bible) is the final authority in this matter 2. your interpretation is the best one 3. what to do pragmatically/logistically with those people who would be displaced. That's a pretty tall order. I think that it is possible only through spiritual revelation that comes from the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 11:36) and is not likely to be accomplished through argumentation. Did you come to know God and accept the Bible's authority through a series of arguments and your own intellectual prowess, or through a process of revelation and change of heart initiated by God's Spirit?
One more observation that I'd like to make Don. Looking at your profile, it says that you are "here to learn." However, none of the posts here seem to be inquisitive in nature. Your tone is that of an instructor rather than a person who is trying to learn. Instructors are more likely to get a positive response out of their pupils if their tone and demeanor is humble, even if their pupils are erring and the teacher is confident in the Truth he is trying to convey to them. I can't think of any situation in which someone who is trying to learn is better off approaching matters from an authoritative and proud perspective. Whether you are truly here to learn or here to correct people as a teacher, I think that your approach is not constructive.
One quick example: addressing Eileen, you said "you're not saying the same thing God says". All I'm saying is that a more humble approach to saying the same thing might be something like this: "you're not saying the same thing God says as I understand His message in scripture." It's a minor difference in the way things are worded, but it allows for our human fallibility. This is an important element (for all of us here) as we work together toward a better understanding of how God really wants us to conduct our lives together.
david
Joshua gravesite
Eileen,
You are correct, I'm not hearing you because I would rather hear the word of God first and find out what He says and then compare it with what you said, and by the way you're not saying the same thing God says.
Here is a small tidbit of information about how some of the Arabs within Israel view Israel's spiritual heritage.
1. Arabs Desecrate Grave of Biblical Prime Minister Joshua
by Ezra HaLevi
Jewish worshippers Tuesday were stunned to find Arabs had desecrated the graves of the Biblical Joshua, Caleb and Nun (Joshua’s father).
Joshua served as the Jewish Nation's Prime Minister from the year 2488 until 2516 on the Hebrew calendar (1272 BCE - 1300 BCE).
Members of the One Shechem organization that organizes visits to the graves arrived in the village of Timnat (Kifl) Haress, near Ariel in Samaria, to prepare for a special prayer gathering, discovered that Arab vandals had desecrated the village’s Jewish tombs. The tombs of Yehoshua (Joshua) ben Nun, Nun, and Calev (Caleb) ben Yefuneh were covered with garbage and feces – both human and animal, and anti-Semitic and Nazi slogans and symbols had been painted in the area.
Nevertheless, worshippers gathered at the tombs Tuesday night for special prayers on the tenth of Tevet, the day Kaddish and other prayers are recited for those whose date of death is unknown, such as Calev ben Yefuneh. Organizers had cleaned up the damage and attendees reported a positive experience.
The prayers were also to mark the end of the 30-day increased-stricture mourning period for murdered Jewish father Ido Zoldan of Kedumim, by a Palestinian Authority police officer.
Organizers reported that a wide array of Jews – hareidi, national religious and traditional – took part in the visit and prayers. They also praised the cooperation of security forces, particularly the Efraim Division of the IDF.
The One Shechem organization issued a call to the public to do everything in their power to preserve the holy sites in Samaria, including Joseph’s Tomb in Shechem and to fight for the right of Jews to visit and worship there freely.
Click here for an Arutz-7 Exclusive Photo Essay of a midnight visit to the graves of Joshua, Calev and Nun.
Don
Dear Don and The Word of God
You wrote:
"You are correct, I'm not hearing you because I would rather hear the word of God first and find out what He says and then compare it with what you said, and by the way you're not saying the same thing God says."
I disagree whole heartedly and being an Irish American story teller, I offer you "a small tidbit of information" about The Word/Jesus from a Chapter in "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" which was inspired by an actual email conversation I had with an Episcopal priest and fundamentalist Christian Zionist.
He gave up, but I never will.
A CONFRONTATIONAL CONVERSATION
“Father Paul, you cannot possibly be telling me that an Episcopal priest has been taken in by fundamentalist theology?” Terese incredulously asked the new assistant to the rector at St. Joan of Arc Episcopal Church in Orlando, who also served at the noon mass every Wednesday.
Father Paul Hendricks was a passionate evangelist on a mission to convert every Jew he encountered to become a Christian. Terese had kept her silence for the first six months she had been listening to his Wednesday noon sermons, but finally broke her silence after the rest of the parishioners had departed.
Paul sighed and shook his head. “Look, Mrs. Hunter, I read your op/ed in the newspaper about Israel and Palestine, and we both agree we want peace; we just go about it differently.”
“Father, let me say that the fastest growing cult in the U.S.A. is the cult of Christian Zionism. Approximately 25 million U.S. Christians believe as you do, and I am most depressed to see that the simple answers of fundamentalism have reached their tentacles into the thinking man’s church. You just preached for thirteen minutes on Genesis 12:3--‘I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse: and in you all the families of the world are blessed’--as if God meant blessings to be political power and military might. Father, surely you understand that the belief of the ancient Israelites, who held that they were chosen, as if they were somehow special from others, as if God esteemed them above others, is just basic primitive nationalism. Come on, Father, looking down on one’s enemies to foster one’s own tribal interest and praying to God to smite one’s enemies is what the ancients did. Isn’t it about time we moved beyond that limited thinking?”
Father Paul clenched his fists and held them behind his back, as he suppressed a simmering rage. He stood nine inches above Terese’s upturned head, and with a slick smile and condescending tone told her, “Mrs. Hunter, you are very misled. The text is understood to mean a blessing to Abraham’s lineage--”
Terese cut in. “Agreed! And Genesis 12:3 was promised even before Ishmael, the father of the Arab nation, and Isaac, the Jew, were born! And what about the very first mention of Israel? Jacob was renamed Israel for having wrestled and struggled with God. That is how I understand Israel; everyone who struggles and wrestles with God is Israel, too. Israel means more than a geographical location, Father Paul.”
“Mrs. Hunter, the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of the prophetic scriptures, and God’s covenant with Israel is eternal, exclusive, and will not be abrogated. I refer you to Genesis 12:1-7, 15:4-7, 17:1-8; Leviticus 26:44-45; and Deuteronomy 7:7:8.”
“And Father, I refer you to Matthew 5:43-45, which does not only critique Genesis 12:3; it blows it apart, for Christ commanded, ‘Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, that you maybe children of your Father.’”
The two had reached Paul’s SUV and he silently prayed he could make a swift escape, but Terese had positioned herself at the driver’s door, and if he were to open it swiftly, she could be easily moved aside. Father Paul entertained the thought for more than a moment, but remained mute and still, as the tiny woman exploded with a torrent of words.
"Look, blind allegiance to the Israeli government has allowed them to become a big bully, and isn’t God always on the side of the oppressed? My sense is that you Zionists see the political state of Israel as a replacement for Christ, at the center of the Christian faith, and that certainly is not Christianity!
"How do you take Genesis 12:3 to literally mean that blessings equal land and political power, yet ignore God’s promise in Genesis 21:17-20 to ‘make a great nation out of Ishmael’s descendents’ and that ‘God was with the boy.’ Yet your way of thinking allows the growing apartheid wall to continue, and supports occupation and oppression of people that God also made promises too.”
“Mrs. Hunter, why don’t you make an appointment and we can discuss this further? I really have to go.”
“Okay, I can take a hint, but let me leave you with this: when religion and politics are in bed together, everybody gets screwed! The Israeli government is using you Zionists as apologists in support of their agenda of illegal occupation and settlements in the West bank, Golan, and Gaza, on literal biblical grounds taken out of context. Your blind allegiance to every act of Israel, understood as being orchestrated by God and which should therefore be condoned, supported, and even praised, makes me want to puke! And I wonder about the true motives of Christians who actually relish the idea of Armageddon and love to speculate on who gets ‘left behind.’ Christ was very clear that there will be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth by those who were so sure they were in, but get left out. God has always been on the side of the oppressed, and your uncritical endorsement and justification for Israel’s racist and apartheid policies are an abomination.”
The stunned and silent priest watched in relief as Terese turned, flipped her braid, and walked away.
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
Whose Homeland?
The tiny nation of Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jews, the only Jewish nation, in contrast to the vast Arab nations. Israel is smaller than most states in this country. I don't understand why the descendants of Palestinian Arabs who were displaced by the establishment of Israel following World War ll are apparently not welcomed in any Arab nation.
I don't think this has anything to do with concern for Palestinian Arabs. It is about the elimination of the Jewish homeland.
Of course, any American who supports turning Israel over to the Palestinian Arabs must be prepared to turn their own homes over to Native Americans, to relocate to their own ancestral homelands.
Dear DHFabian, sisters and brothers
Can you understand how you would feel if Russia came to the USA and kicked you out of your home and made you a refugee?
That is what happened to the indigenous Arabs of Palestine.
You mention the Native Americans. Let us be honest and admit what 'civilized' white men did to them was ethnic cleansing.
Have you ever heard of The Red House?
"On March 10, 1948, in Tel Aviv, eleven men had a meeting in the Red House headed by Ben Gurion. The eleven decided to expel one million Palestinians from historical Palestine. No minutes were taken, but many memoirs were written about that fateful meeting. A systematic ethnic cleansing of Palestine began and within seven months the Zionists managed to expel one half of all the Palestinian people from their villages and towns."-Dr. Ilan Pappe.
Dr. Ilan Pappe is Israeli born and a graduate of Hebrew University and Oxford who teaches at Haifa University. He is a well known revisionist or "post-Zionist" Israeli historian who has been both acclaimed and demonized. His most recent work is A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples which documents the expulsion of Palestinians as an orchestrated crime of ethnic cleansing.
On Nov. 8, 2006, on the seventh day of Sabeel's 6th International Conference; The Forgotten Faithful, Dr. Pappe spoke to over 330 International ecumenical Christians in the Ramallah Cultural Palace. His topic was the "Dynamics of Forgetting" and because of the "fierce urgency of now" [Rev. MLK, Jr.] the world is beginning to remember that once there was a Red House, where a most diabolical plan was hatched.
Dr. Pappe informed the crowd, "The Red House in Tel Aviv is gone now. It was a typical building in Tel Aviv that had all the characteristics of Mediterranean homes but with the local Palestinian architecture of the '20's. Today a USA Sheraton Hotel stands in its place. The Red House was the home of the Hagganah; a Jewish underground organization but before 1948 it was the home of a socialist movement, from which it received its name."
Haganah is Hebrew for "The Defense" and was a Jewish paramilitary organization formed in what was then the British Mandate for Palestine from 1920 to 1948. It began as a small group of "Jewish immigrants who guarded settlements for an annual fee. At no time did the group have more than 100 members until after the Arab riots of 1920 and 1921. The Jewish leadership in Palestine believed that the British, whom the League of Nations had given the Mandate of Palestine in 1920, had no desire to confront the Arabs about attacks on the Palestinian Jews, and thus created the Haganah to protect their farmers and settlements. The initial role of the Haganah was to guard the Jewish Kibbutzim and farms, and to warn the residents of and repel attacks by Palestinian Arabs.
In the period between 1920 and 1929, the Haganah lacked a strong central authority or coordination. Haganah "units" were very localized and poorly armed: they consisted mainly of Jewish farmers who took turns guarding their farms or their kibbutzim. Following the Arab 1929 Hebron massacre that led to the ethnic cleansing by the British authorities of all Jews from the city of Hebron, the Haganah's role changed dramatically. It became a much larger organization encompassing nearly all the youth and adults in the Jewish settlements, as well as thousands of members from the cities. It also acquired foreign arms and began to develop workshops to create hand grenades and simple military equipment. It went from being an untrained militia to a capable army."
The British did not officially recognize the Haganah,but the British security forces cooperated with it by forming the Jewish Settlement Police, Jewish Auxiliary Forces and Special Night Squads. By 1931, the most right-wing elements of Haganah branched off and formed Irgun Tsva'i-Leumi (the National Military Organization), better known as "Irgun" (or by its Hebrew acronym, pronounced "HaEtsel"). The members were discontented with the policy of restraint when faced with British and Arab pressure and "terrorists" in their own right. Irgun later split in 1940, and their off-shoot became known as the "Lehi" (Hebrew acronym of Lochamei Herut Israel, standing for Freedom Fighters of Israel, and also known by the British as the "Stern Gang" after its leader, Abraham Stern. Because the British severely restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine, in 1939 the Haganah created the Palmach - the Haganah's strike force, which also organized illegal Jewish immigration of over 100,000 Jews to Palestine.
In 1944, in response to the assassination of Lord Moyne, the British Minister of State for the Middle East, by members of the Jewish Lehi underground, the Haganah worked with the British to round up, interrogate, and, in some cases, deport Irgun members. This action was called the Saison (or hunting season), and seriously demoralized the Irgun and reduced its activities.
But, the Saison could not stop the Irgun, Haganah and the Stern Group from working together. The three groups had different functions, which served to move the British out of Palestine and to make Palestine a Jewish state rather than create a Jewish home in Palestine.
Menachem Begin, an Irgun commander, stated in a 1944 meeting: "In fact, there is a division of roles; one organization advocates individual terrorism (the Lehi), the other conducts sporadic military operations (the Irgun) and there is a third organization which prepares itself to throw its final weight in the decisive war."
Dr. Pappe's opening remark on November 8, 2006, still sends chills though me, "On March 10, 1948, eleven men had a fateful meeting in the Red House headed by Ben Gurion. The eleven decided to expel one million Palestinians from historical Palestine. No minutes were taken, but many memoirs were written about that fateful meeting. A systematic ethnic cleansing of Palestine began and within seven months the Zionists managed to expel one half of all the Palestinian people from their villages and towns.
"The New York Times followed Israeli troops and reported the truth of the expulsion and separation of men and women, and of the many massacres. The world was well informed in 1948, but a year later not a trace was reported in the USA press or books. It was as if nothing ever happened.
"From March to October 1948 the USA State Department stated what was happening was a crime against humanity and ethnic cleansing. When ever one ethnic group expels another group they should be treated as War Criminals and the victims should be allowed to return. This is never mentioned in the USA about Palestine.
"Israel is so successful in their ethnic cleansing because the world doesn't care! The ethnic cleansing continues via the apartheid policies of the Israeli government and because of the denial of the truth by the USA media.
"To claim Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East is bullshit! The Six Day War of 1967 escalated the ethnic cleansing and today in Jerusalem every Palestinian who fails to pay taxes, or has a minor infraction will loose their citizenship.
"In 1948 the mechanism of denial and ethnic cleansing as an IDEOLOGY, not a policy but a formula began. When Zionism began in the 19th century it was meant to be a safe haven for Jews and to help redefine Judaism as a national movement, not just a religion. Nothing wrong with either of those goals! But by the late 19th Century it was decided the only way these goals could be achieved was by ridding the indigenous population and it became an evil ideology.
"Israeli Jewish life will never be simple, good, or worth living while this ideology of domination, exclusiveness and superiority is allowed to continue. The mind set today is that unless Israel is an exclusive Jewish State, Palestinians will continue to be obstacles. However, there has always been a small vocal minority challenging this.
"The only thing that can save Palestinians is for the world to say "ENOUGH is ENOUGH!" The way to challenge and change the ethnic cleansing is to pursue true democracy and the use of sanctions and divestment, for money talks."
Since 1948, USA taxpayers have provided nearly 100 Billion dollars to Israel. However, America's $84.8 billion in aid to Israel just from fiscal years 1949 through 1998, and the interest the U.S. paid to borrow this money, has cost U.S. taxpayers $134.8 billion, not adjusted for inflation.
The original hope of Zionism was that the Jewish people would have a safe and peaceful dwelling place. Jews remain a traumatized people and their Holocaust hangover affects all of us. For millennia the Jewish people have been threatened and oppressed, but in the 21st century, they have become the oppressors. In the 60's the comic strip Pogo critiqued Vietnam, and the words still echo four decades later, "We have seen the enemy and he is US."
If America had forced Israel to abide by International Law and not supplied billions of weapons of destruction at bargain basement prices and financial aid, Israel would have made peace with her neighbors long ago. A safe and peaceful dwelling place cannot be had through the barrel of a gun. Nonviolent Palestinians must be supported and encouraged, and all violence must be unequivocally renounced. During World War II the Nazis cold bloodedly murdered six million innocent Jews because good people did nothing for far too long. Afterwards, the UN, the USA, and the European states decided to create a Jewish state in Palestine.
In 1947, with the termination of the British Mandate and rising violence and terrorism between Jews and Palestinians, the UN called for a Jewish-Arab partition of Palestine. Neither side liked the deal, but the secular Zionists jumped at the chance while the Palestinians and Arabs opposed it, citing the injustice of demanding Palestinians pay for Hitler's atrocities.
Israel proclaimed it's independence in May 1948 by affirming: "One the day of the termination of the British mandate and on the strength of the United Nations General Assembly declare The State of Israel will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel: it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion it will guarantee freedom of religion [and] conscience and will be faithful to the Charter of the United Nations."
Britain withdrew from the land and war erupted. The well equipped Israeli forces created a triumph for the Jews and birthed the ongoing disaster for Palestinians and the world. Over 750,000 Palestinians became refugees and the roots of 21st century terrorism began. There is one small piece of property that two peoples who have been victimized, terrorized and oppressed are fighting over and neither side will ever give up.
There can be no remedy, no winning any war on terrorism without going to the root: the history and suffering of both people must be addressed and only with an honest third party seeking justice will there ever be security and peace. World leaders have failed at the task and both sides distrust the other, but repeated polls in Israel and Palestine prove the people are way ahead of their leaders. Majorities on both sides want a negotiated peace, but compromise on both sides must occur.
The bad news is that many Israelis and Palestinians lack HOPE that peace is possible. Peace requires justice and that demands dialogue not unilateral action and open hearts to feel and acknowledge the pain of the other. Everything is connected and the law of karma is what ever we send out will return to us. USA and Israel are best friends, and the rise of fundamentalism within all faiths, the increasing spread of anti-Semitism and the fear of Islam in America are wake up calls to all people of good will to do something. A change in course must be chartered, or we will pass onto our innocent children a legacy of endless war.
Six decades ago six million innocent Jews were cold bloodedly murdered because good people did nothing for far too long.
In 1973, Ariel Sharon told Winston Churchill III, "We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We'll insert a strip of Jewish settlement, in between the Palestinians, then another strip of Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years time, neither the United Nations, nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart."
But all things are possible and miracles do occur. Imagine if we the people in the USA held our leaders accountable to the promises they make, and President Bush made a noble one: "In the long run, there is no justice without FREEDOM. There can be no human rights without LIBERTY. All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know the United States will not ignore your oppression or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for liberty, we stand with you."-President George W. Bush, Second Inaugural Address
When candidate Bush claimed his favorite philosopher was Christ, I believed him. Thomas Jefferson weeded out the miracle stories from the gospels and clarified the teachings of Christ in The Jefferson Bible: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth which clarify what Christ was really all about:
To be just and justice comes from virtue which comes from the heart. To treat people the way we want to be treated. To always work for PEACEFUL resolutions, even to the point of returning violence with COMPASSION. To not judge others and bear no grudges, and those who think they know the most are the most ignorant.
The most radical and revolutionary of all of America's founding fathers was Tom Paine, who wrote, "Soon after I had published the pamphlet "Common Sense" [on Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion... The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."
Christ's other name is "The Prince of Peace" and he walked and preached the good news that God is within all people. To truly follow Christ means one will rise up in defense of the poor, the oppressed, the outcast, the widow, the orphan, the poor, the prisoner and refugees. Christ taught that we are to pursue justice, and justice is the only way to security and peace…
The "war on terror" must be fought at the root and all roads do indeed, lead to Jerusalem.
Common sense understands that democracy nor security can ever be achieved through the barrel of a gun. Justice and equal human rights for all people is the only way to security and peace. May we all do something as Americans and rise up and demand this Congress and Administration uphold the promise of President Bush's Second Inaugural Address. For then, we truly can bring into this reality Tom Paine's vision of what America was originally based upon.
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
God Have Mercy
Human Beings have rights.
States, nations and governments have obligations.
Have ANY of you ever been to Israel Palestine?
I have; five times since 2005.
I have sat in the homes of and listened to uncountable refugees who were forced out of their legally owned homes in 1948, after 'civilized whitemen' cut up a part of the world that had ALWAYS been home to Jews, Christians and Muslims.
When one goes to the 'Holy' Land one can see for themselves how the secular state of Israel and 40 yrs. of Military Occupation has made an abomination of the 'Holy' Land which is in pieces: bantustans!
One with a heart will be enraged.
One with a mind will seek to do something.
I write because I must and have written two books and have a pro-bono website; all dedicated to waking up USA Christians to the cries of their sisters and brothers in Christ; the indigenous Palestinian Christians whose families lived there when Jesus walked and taught that it is the PEACEMAKERS who are the children of God-NOT the Military Occupiers.
Scholars and researches all agree that unless things change asap, there will be NO Christian witness in the 'Holy' Land by 2020!
The USA govt, media spin and fundamentalist 'Christian' Zionists erroneously put all the blame for the Christian EXODUS on radical Muslims.
THE TRUTH is that Palestinians in the 'Holy' Land have no human rights and Israel is allowed to blatantly defy international law, The Wall is all about grabbing the land and resources of Palestinians to ethnically cleanse them from their land and we the people of USA, by virtue of paying taxes are culpable. .
"It has been said the Jews do not love this land; they just want to possess it."-Professor Jeff Halper, American Israeli, 2006 Nobel Peace Prize Nominee and Founder/Coordinator of Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions.
More Truth:
119 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 971 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
1,027 Israelis and at least 4,345 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
7,633 Israelis and 31,531 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.
Every day, the U.S gives more than $7,023,288 to the Israeli government and military -and at least $108 billion since 1948-but provides nothing to the Palestinians.
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
Homeland indeed
The Jewish people do indeed have a historical connection to parts of the nation now known as Israel. There was however never a time when a Jewish nation/government ruled over the entire land. The primary lands of the Jews after the subjugation of the 10 northern tribes was Judea and Samaria. They lost that in 135 AD when they were expelled by the Romans.
Since that time many peoples have inhabited the land, the Palestinian Arabs included. For more than 1,000 years (even more if we look to the Arab Christian inhabitants of Bethlehem and Nazareth) Arab Palestinians have been the majority. Before 1948 Palestinians owned 93% of the land while Jews owned 7%...The West Bank and Gaza make up about 30% of historic Palestine and of that 30% the Palestinians have "control" over about 43%. Under occupation however only the Israeli's truly have control.
Visit my blog @ www.thepromiseofpalestine.blogspot.com to learn about my recent trip to the Palestinian West Bank.
two state solution
Well, i think you forget in making your point that the Indian nations are still here, still alive, although not always well due to the swindling and oppression of Europeans as we "manifested our destiny." We have worked out a solution, although not perfect that allows the Indian nations to maintain some degree of sovereignty.
In fact many of the folk now migrating here from Latin America are Native American. Such a fact makes all this talk of a border fence and tough sanctions for immigrants a bit hypocritical given our history.
I think all rational people at this point realize that there are competing claims to the land and that a two state solution is the only way forward. Everyone from Bush to Clinton to Blair to Abbas to Ohmert to Barack all realize that there must be two states the coexist with each other, however uneasily. The devil of course is in the details, especially as radicals on either side call for an unrealistic absolute position, either no Palestinian state (conservative Jews with Christian Zionists such as Don Costello and apparently DHFabian) or no Israel (Hamas and their radical Muslim friends). All of this is a bit ridiculous as the radicals on either side disrupt the peace process, isn't it? Both would rather see killing for land over justice for all. None of our faiths agree with such a position, although somehow all of our faiths are used to justify suck killing. When will we say...Enough! Let there be peace within the tent of Abraham.
The "peace" process
Please understand that the USA has NEVER been an honest broker for peace, for equal human rights and for international law when it comes to the 'Holy' Land.
Please understand that unless a VIABLE Palestinian state emerges there will never be security or peace for anyone in the 'Holy' Land.
Please understand that the 'Holy' Land is in pieces: bantustans!
Please understand that:
"Israel is a not a democracy but is an Ethnocracy, meaning a country run and controlled by a national group with some democratic elements but set up with Jews in control and structured to keep them in control.”-Jeff Halper, American Israeli, Founder and Coordinator of ICAHD/Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and a Noble Peace Prize Nominee for 2006, to me during one of my five journeys to Israel Palestine.
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
but are your in favor of two state solution?
Eileen,
Almost everyone of your posts has to do with the Palestinian/Israeli issue, but rarely have you offered concrete and realistic steps that might be taken.
To say the US has never been a decent broker for peace is misguided. While this administration has essentially ignored the peace process until a month ago, the Clinton administration was very active and achieved significant gains. Carter was also effective in the region.
So are you in favor of a two state solution? if not, what's the alternative? do you acknowlege that there are radicals on both sides that are adversely affecting the peace process? Your condemnation seems solely geared towards Israel and not towards Hamas.
Concrete + Realistic Steps
Dear brothers and sisters,
My first book "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" is an olive branch of reconciliation and pure charity as 100% of all royalties go to the Interfaith 501 3-c, Olive Trees Foundation for Peace to provide funds to replace the over one million trees destroyed by The Wall in BOTH Israel Palestine.
"KEEP HOPE ALIVE" is based on the memories and life of a 1948 Palestinian Muslim refugee from the Galilee who lives a life that mirrors Christ, for he has no bitterness about what was done to him and his people and only seeks reconciliation.
Education is the way to compassion and that was also my intent in writing "KEEP HOPE ALIVE"
I totally disagree with the statement: "the US has never been a decent broker for peace is misguided."
We the people have been misguided by a press that have NOT reported accurately and a government that spins illegal colonies as neighborhoods, for every single settlement in the West Bank is on legally owned Palestinian land!
Any serious Diplomatic offer made by a country ILLEGALLY OCCUPYING another should be judged on the gold standard which is International Law and Israel is afraid of International Law!
Barak's "generous offer" was NOT generous at all.
That offer was that Palestinians would receive a disconnected land area that equaled 80% of the REMAINING 22% of historic Palestine.
A network of APARTEID by-pass roads, bridges and tunnels for Jews only built with the aid of USA TAX dollars on legally owned Palestinian property would be permanently occupied by the IDF; which translates into permanent loss of water and resources.
There was to be NO SHARED Jerusalem!
The right of return for refugees was not even addressed and 80% of the ILLEGAL settlers were to remain in place.
On May 14, 1948, The Declaration of the establishment of Israel affirmed:
"On the day of the termination of the British mandate and on the strength of the United Nations General Assembly declare The State of Israel will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel: it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion it will guarantee freedom of religion [and] conscience and will be faithful to the Charter of the United Nations."
If only Israel had kept its own word!
The state of Israel was established CONTINGENT upon upholding the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights and I will cite only a few they totally ignore:
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Israel instead chose the way of Political Zionism and ethnic cleansing of Palestine to build a foundation of exceptional rights for Jews.
Zionism claims that Jews are chosen, have suffered exceptionally, and that they are chosen to go live in Palestine, to take land away from the indigenous people and treat them as subhuman.
Of the 10 million Palestinians in the world today, 7 million are refugees and displaced people and millions suffer as less than second class citizens or as non-citizens under illegal Israeli occupation in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza strip.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Most Palestinians live in exile or in internal displacement. Over 10% of Palestinian men in the West Bank and Gaza have spent time in Israeli jails and it was in those jails that members of Hamas learned their lessons.
Today 11,000 Palestinian Christians and Muslims are held in Israeli jails, many are under the age of 16 and many are mothers who are held under administrative detentions without charges.
Most all because of rejecting the illegal occupation of their land and for their non-violent resistance against the military occupation.
BTW even violent resistance to illegal occupation is actually supported and encouraged by international law
See:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/prisoners.html
My second book is all about NONVIOLENT resisters of the occupation-Jews, Christians, Muslims, internationals, anarchists, secularists, agnostics who seek JUSTICE which requires equal human rights for all!
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
Palestinians even from Bethlehem cannot visit or pray in Arab East Jerusalem, a mere 7 miles distance.
They cannot travel freely from any one of the 10 remaining Palestinian Ghettos (Bantustans) to the other ghettos.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Israel allows any Jew without historical ties to that land to migrate and receive full citizenship and perks galore, but denies the indigenous Palestinian refugees the right to return to their land and confiscates their land without compensation -so called “absentee property law”.
2/3rds of the native Palestinians are refugees and displaced people all because they are the 'wrong' religion: Christian and Muslim!
In the past 6 years alone 35,000 more Palestinians were made homeless by home demolitions and land confiscations.
Please refer to:
www.icahd.org
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Mordechai Vanunu, a Christian held captive in Jerusalem is a prime example of how freedom of thought and conscience is violated by Israel.
In the occupied areas, all manner of communications is controlled by the Israeli authorities including access to airwaves etc.
Freedom of religion is regularly prohibited by Israel. Hundreds of mosques and churches were demolished (among the 530 villages and towns depopulated and well after that).
Palestinian Muslims and Christians in the West Bank (with rare exceptions and only after going thru major hurdles) are denied the right to go to Jerusalem to pray at their holiest sites.
The Islamic Holy sites in Jerusalem are the third holies to Islam and yet Muslims from around the world are also denied the right to visit (even many US Muslims are denied entry at Israeli borders).
Jewish anti-Zionists or those Jews deemed supportive of Palestinian rights are also denied entry to visit even if they are religious.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Again, I cite Vanunu who has been sentenced to 6 months in jail just for speaking his mind in 2004 after his release from 18 yrs. in jail for telling the truth: that Israel was already nuclear in 1986.
To answer the rest of your concerns:
Hamas would NOT even exist if there was no occupation!
Israel originally supported and encouraged Hamas -when it was still only a service organization- to be a wedge against the PLO.
There are no card carrying Hamas members. NOT all Hamas are violent but all are against the Military occupation.
The time for a viable Palestinian state may have passed us by, but yes, i still do cling to the hope that all things are possible.
Learn More:
http://justicewheels.org
http://qumsiyeh.org
I am grateful you mentioned Jimmy Carter and wonder if you read his book and know that he himself admitted that a major hurdle to peace and justice are USA Christians who believe Israel is the fulfillment of the Hebrew scriptures, not Jesus.
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
you've made a list of wrongs but no solution
Eileen, you've made a list of wrongdoing on Israel's side, without even a mention of the terrorist attacks on the Palestinian side or the very real split between the Palestinan moderates and radicals about the path forward.
You've also offered no real steps as to how to make peace. You seem to imply that Gaza and the West bank would not be enough in a two state solution in terms of land even if Jerusalem was shared. What more should be expected?
Does this mean you don't support a two state solution? Could you be more clear about your position on this.
You are NOT hearing me
We Christians are CALLED to be RECONCILER'S and NOT Judger's.
"KEEP HOPE ALIVE" is my way to offer the olive branch to ALL people.
WAKE UP and smell reality:
Bethlehem checkpoint:
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=d1FaWE1SIZk&feature=related
The Israeli Palestinian conflict is NOT between equals and this 9 minute video will prove to you-if you have eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart that bleeds that when ever people are treated WORSE than cattle they will rebel, rise up and fight.
A two-state solution that will continue the APARTHEID conditions of the 'Holy' Land is most definitely NOT what I support!
What has been missing in all the 'peace' conferences and photo-ops has been the recognition that EQUAL HUMAN RIGHTS and INTERNATIONAL LAW which is the only way to peace and security for Israel!
How many times must I say JUSTICE and only JUSTICE is the way to peace and security for Israel???
I have repeatedly written that JUSTICE requires EQUAL HUMAN RIGHTS and honoring INTERNATIONAL LAW is THE WAY to peace in the Holy Land, you must have missed it every time!
What I have witnessed in Israel Palestine has filled two books and my website is dedicated to telling the stories that USA MSM does NOT!
Why don't you read BOTH my books cover to cover and then you will understand THE WAY we Christians should go!
e
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
practical steps towards justice
So if you are indeed against a two state solution (which I think most folks realize is the only way forward), what practical steps are you proposing to achieve justice?
Your answer can't be just the word "justice". Justice involves fair processes and fair outcomes. What process and outcomes are you specifically looking for? How would equal rights be achieved without granting both the Israelis and Palestinians the right to exist on the land? How would you ever stop the opporession without Palestinian autonomy?
I understand you are upset about injustices done to the Palestinians, but I think more thought needs to be given in the practical steps for the path forward. Even if Israel acknowledged its wrong-doing that would necessarily lead to any outcome that at the crux of the issue: can Palestinians and Israelis in the same general space that they both lay claim to?
1948 Palestine borders as opposed to todays?
I'm coming into this not knowing too much about the details of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, but I've been reading Eileen's posts these past two months. Correct me if I'm wrong, Eileen, but I think Eileen wants an Israel and a Palestine according to the borders recommended by the 1948 U.N. proposition and a situation where the two states are equal, not where one state is powerful and the other impoverished.
The devil is in the details, as Stephen said. I haven't read Eileen's book yet, but I skimmed through it after reading these posts and came up with something Abuna Elias Chacur, the Melkite priest and 3 time Nobel Peace Prize nominee, said:
"I am a Palestinian Israeli who lives for peace and reconciliation. The problem here is not about the land. There is a blockage between Arabs and Jews. It must end. We need to explore a third way to rise above the conflict. There are three million Palestinians living in refugee camps! This injustice must come to an end. Once, we Jews and Arabs were partners and friends. The only way out of this conflict is to rise above it."
As I am watching this I'm watching the documentary "Encounter Point" from the library. It's about Israelis and Palestinians who've lost loved ones to the fight and risk their lives and reputations for peace and reconciliation. They try to dialogue with their own, and often face obstacles of rage and fear. And they cite people that they look up to, like Gandhi and Nelson Mandela, as alternatives to the violence that many think is inevitable. Instead of waiting for leaders to get around to talking, this is an example of an attempt at peace from the grassroots level.
Good One Angelo
Reconciliation is utmost, but that cannot happen until there is JUSTICE: which requires EQUAL HUMAN RIGHTS and ALL sides uphold international law.
We are discussing a very small piece of real estate that Tony Blair admitted -while still PM-is at the root of 70% of the worlds problems with terrorism.
All roads do indeed lead to Jerusalem and the first step for we the people of America to understand is how unbalanced the situation is there.
We the people have been fed a diet of propaganda from our media and govt. and the situation is untenable.
We have heard about a "Two-State Solution" adnauseum, but the facts on the ground is if it were birthed today; Palestine would NOT be a VIABLE state-for it is in pieces; bantustans!
That being reality and the distrust on both sides is why I still cling to the unrealistic hope of a two-state solution, but i know in my gut that one democratic state with equal rights for all is the ultimate goal.
A site I think that will help you all understand what we progressives are up against-the well organized neo-con Christian Zionists who do not want peace, but Armageddon is the thought provoking:
"The United States of Israel-Palestine: The peaceful solution Armageddonist extremists don't want you to hear."
About them:
Many people take a glance at this site, and their first reaction is to take offense and point out that this site is not focusing enough on terrorism.
The fact of the matter is, this site vehemently opposes terrorism. We actually propose an alternate solution, instead of just complaining about problems.
Unlike many who uphold apocalypticism as a mandate to live by, we do not believe the rapture is an exit strategy.
This blog is powered by the dream of a brighter future where our foreign policy is based on what is best for our national interests.
The exit strategy we propose is a United State of Israel-Palestine. This is the alternative to what many theologians propose when it comes to endorsing immeasurable suffering in the name of fulfilling bible prophesy.
Our aim is to temper faith with reason, not to attack it.
It is not to persecute the religious, but to detract those who would use it to mismanage our nation into yet more blunders.
This is the hight of patriotism, the peak of decency, and the noble intent of our founding fathers when they separated church from state.
Some Quotes from them follow and will hopefully provoke deep thought:
1. Olmert warns against apartheid; calls for separate but equal
An Associated Press article quotes the Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert as saying that"the state of Israel is finished" if a Palestinian state is not created, saying the alternative was a South African-style apartheid struggle.
Isn't this like saying that the solution to South Africa's apartheid system was to create a separate state for the blacks?
A two state solution is like rearranging the furniture on the deck of the titanic. It's the underlying principle that is the problem.
Why is a democracy where the rights of all are protected not the goal?
2."Persons of biblical faith are called to 'pray for the peace of Jerusalem' (Ps. 122). The ideology of Christian Zionism celebrates violence and the defeat of peacemaking efforts. It blesses neither Israelis nor Palestinians."
- The Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism
3. “God save us from these people... When you see what these people are encouraging Israel and the U.S. Administration to do that is, ignore the Palestinians, if not worse, if not kick them out, expand the settlements to the greatest extent possible, they are leading us into a scenario of out and out disaster.” - Yossi Alpher, who served 12 years in Israel’s intelligence agency, the Mossad. Later, he became Israel Director of the American Jewish Committee
4. "Some Christians who I know very well, very devout people, believe a certain interpretation of Revelations, that in my opinion are quite weird, in that in the coming of Christ that the holy land has to be occupied by the Jews and not by anyone else and then in the end that all Jews will have to be killed or either converted to Christianity. This is a very seriously distorted interpretation of the Scriptures that I am very familiar with.
-Jimmy Carter
5. While saying the situation in Israel is similar to aparthied in many ways, Desmond Tutu called for a two state solution:
"We believe in a two-state solution of two sovereign, viable states, each with contiguous borders, guaranteed as secure by the international community. "
While well intentioned, Tutu's solution is in fact a half baked potato.
If in fact there is a two state solution, what would happen to those Jews who want to live on the Palestinian side of the border?
What about the Palestinians who now call Israel home?
Are they supposed to reciprocate refugees? Clearly this is not tenable. Especially since both sides share the same cities as "home."
The obvious solution is to create a United States of Israel-Palestine.
A two state solution just gives Armageddonists a target for destruction.
A one state solution is civilized.
A two state solution is a throw back to the dark ages.
The most powerful message Tutu had to deliver was to the Jewish conscience:
Be not opposed to the God whose Spirit, when it anoints you, makes you concerned for the poor. This is your calling. If you disobey that calling, if you do not heed it, then as sure as anything one day you will come a cropper. You will probably not succumb to an outside assault militarily. With the unquestioning support of the United States of America, you are probably impregnable. But you who are called are they who are called, asked to deal with the oppressed, the weak, the despised, compassionately, caringly, remembering what happened to you in Egypt and, much more recently, in Germany. Remember and act appropriately. If you reject your calling, you may survive for a long time, but you will find it is all corrosive inside, and one day, one day, you will implode.
Check it out:
http://unitedip.blogspot.com/
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
what would a single state look like?
I have never heard anyone seriously discuss a single state unless they were talking about how the other side should be wiped out in the process.
What would a single state look like? How would power be shared? How would the state be able to deal with the constant threat of terrorism?
I don't think many of the Palestinians your advocating on behalf of want anything to do with a single state.
one state/two states
Stephen, there's been a lot of serious discussion about a single state, without wiping out the other side.
Here's a debate between Uri Avnery, a senior Israeli peace activist, who's for two states [http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1178916307] and Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian at Haifa University who advocates one state [https://zzzen.secured.co.il/sites/gush/home/en/channels/archive/1178972526/].
(Pappe asserts that Israel was founded on the idea of ethnic cleansing -- which I have to agree with. As a youthful Zionist who had fantasies in high school of going to Israel to fight the British after I graduated, I didn't understand Palestinian history very well. Fortunately, independence and graduation happened right about the same time.)
A binational state is a solution favored by some on both sides. A unitary state also has its adherents. There's a considerable literature on the subject.
A poll in October reported that 46% of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza preferred two states; 23% preferred a binational single state, 9% wanted a single Palestinian state. [http://www.jmcc.org/new/07/nov/poll.htm]
Hamas, in its refusal to recognize the state of Israel is refusing to recognize a state that is Jewish by definition. Israeli Arabs are second class citizens -- that's not a model that's acceptable. Hamas calls for a single state -- and seems willing to dump the Islamic Theocracy clause in its charter under the right conditions.
Israel, however, will never accept the single state. Their talk is all about demography and not being overwhelmed by a rapidly growing Arab population. So the idea will never go anywhere. Instead, demographic fears point to more ethnic cleansing.
Unfortunately, the two-state solution might be on its last legs. Although agreement was almost reached by both sides at Taba (after the end of the Camp David process, with its mythical "generous offer"), the Israelis backed out at the last moment. Evidently Ehud Barak got cold feet and ended the talks unilaterally, in fear of Israeli public opinion. [http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113]
At this point, it's unlikely that a viable Palestinian state will be attainable. For a gloomy assessment, read Immanuel Wallerstein's article "Last call for a two-state solution?" [http://www.binghamton.edu/fbc/220en.htm]
As for terrorism, both sides are guilty. The preponderance of force and terror is on the Israeli state-terrorism side. Until there is a measure of justice, asymmetric terrorism on both sides will continue until, perhaps, there's some final disaster.
One State Alternative
Thanks for making clear your recommendation, Eileen. I have to admit I wasn't expecting that answer, but it is a third alternative to the ideas that I've heard though out the years. I'm coming at this with a relative lack of knowledge, so I have a few friendly questions. In your 5 visits to Palestine, is this a solution that many activists that you met hold? Is the model for this one state solution something similar to the resolution of the situation in South Africa when apartheid fell?
I see what you're saying about the benefits of a one state solution. People have a lot more access to travel and the Jewish settlers can stay where they are. I do see Stephens point too, though. Whether it's a two state solution or your suggestion of a one state solution, the devil is going to be in the details to be worked out. In a one state solution, Eileen, you seem to be trying to avoid what happened in 1948 when India and Pakistan divided and Muslims and Hindus separated and a lot of violence occurred.
One of the things that made the South African situation work was the courageous and wise leadership of Nelson Mandela. The U.S. was lucky to have George Washington during our founding. In this Israel/Palestinian dilemma, it seems like the grassroots peace movement would have to make up for a lack of strong leadership in both sides.
One state idea has some merit
Rereading your post, the one state idea has some merit. It resolves a lot of the issues that have plagued an implementation of a two state plan. With a one state solution, there's no longer the predicament of what to do about Jerusalem. Jewish settlers no longer have to be moved out. And Palestinians could theoretically have the freedom of travel, and this would mean easier access to good jobs. Eileen pointed out that this land is actually quite small, and one state would have more room than a divided two states for the large Israeli and Palestinian populations.
One obstacle I see is the fear of Israelis of being overwhelmed by the larger Palestinian population. The Holocaust left deep scars on the Jewish psyche, and they saw Israel as the one place where they didn't have to be a minority. Those legitimate fears would have to be eased.
Another obstacle would be the struggle to integrate the Palestinians to Israeli society and the overcoming of deep prejudices on both sides. In this, I think grassroot peace groups will need to take the lead in efforts of reconcilation and overcoming the more hostile elements in both sides.
These are just things off the top of my head. Eileen has been in Israel and the Palestinian territories, so she has insight that I don't have. A one state solution, a two state solution, I'm not really sure which is better. Whichever one brings peace.
Most excellent Angelo + wpeltz +MLK + Zinn
My life was irrevocably changed the first time I saw what life was like in the Little Town of Bethlehem: occupied territory and open air prison.
The people I connected with in Israel and Palestine were all NONVIOLENT resisters of the occupation.
What gives me hope for the state of Israel are the secular Jews who stand up with the nonviolent Palestinians and seek justice; equal human rights and international law.
Because I spent time with nonviolent grassroots groups [and wrote about them in "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"] I have hope that "we have it in our power to begin the world again"-Tom Paine.
To be among the altruistic secular Jews such as from Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and Anarchists Against the Wall, am I able to believe that Israel can be what Martin Luther King, Jr. saw just days before his death and before the 40 yrs of its Military occupation of Palestine;
"I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy...an oasis of brotherhood...Peace for Israel means security."
King also said:
“Any nation that year after year continues to raise the Defense budget while cutting social programs to the neediest is a nation approaching spiritual death.” - Rev. MLK.
The state of Israel is very sick and is not a democracy unless you are a Jew. The state of Israel has put its security above the human rights of the indigenous people and we the people of America are culpable in this injustice because we pay taxes that go to support the unjust situation.
Because of my connections with the grassroots ecumenical justice and peace Christians and friends of SABEEL [Arabic for THE WAY] who all understand that JUSTICE and only JUSTICE can bring security to Israel- and justice requires equal human rights and international law which would end the military occupation of Palestine:
Do i have the faith to persist in hope that when USA Christians come to understand the true facts on the ground in the Holy Land; things will and must change, for it is the Peacemakers who are the children of God and we are on Gods side when we stand up with the poor and oppressed
Many Israelis have been writing for quite some time about a One State solution, for to be for two-states with the way things are today, is to be for apartheid.
There is so much distrust on both side and the USA govt. has not been an honest broker for Palestine, so my other hope lies in the International Community and Arab Initiative.
Only when all people do indeed have equal human rights and governments uphold international law, will there be security and peace for Israel.
Democracy cannot be had through the barrel of a gun and it is the faces of all the little children at the checkpoints who only know Israelis through one, that haunts me and fills me with the grace to persist in what appears to be a most hopeless cause.
Was it Howard Zinn who wrote that all causes that appeared hopeless; all of a sudden just changed?
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
Most Excellent Eileen+Bill-More Questions
Thanks for both your emails. I'm not for or against a one state solution, but it sounds like it has some merit. Having heard of it only now, I don't know enough about the strengths and weaknesses to say, and I'm ashamed to say, I'm not really well read in this area. I have questions of you both, based on your two posts.
Bill, if Hamas is willing to drop its Islamic clause, under what conditions would it be willing to drop it? Is Hamas a group that can be negotiated with?
You seem pessimistic about the chances for a two state solution. What do you think is needed to for a two state solution to be viable for both sides? Do you have much confidence in Abbas and Olmert?
From your post, you seem to suggest that a one state solution is probably going to be opposed by Israel. Is it the whole of Israel, or only parts of Israel that would oppose this?
Some of my questions may be answered by the links that you had in your post. I'll try to read them sometime to get more of a background.
Eileen, it seems like the peace movement is made up of secular Jews in Israel. Are there significant numbers of more conservative Jews that are also sympathetic to the peace cause?
I actually don't understand this link between Christians and the pro-occupation Israel. Would you explain that more.
In South Africa, the anti-apartheid movement had leaders that they could rally around. Are there leaders that the peace movement respects that they respect and could rally around?
A question out of left field: what do both of you think of Shimon Peres?
If you support a one state solution, how do you allay Israeli fears of being overwhelmed by a larger Arab population?
Sorry for all the questions.
Angelo's questions
Question: "Bill, if Hamas is willing to drop its Islamic clause, under what conditions would it be willing to drop it? Is Hamas a group that can be negotiated with?"
-- I think Hamas can be negotiated with but only if there are no preconditions. They declared a 10 year truce once and presumably would do so again (without giving up their ultimate Islamic aims) in return for the end of the occupation and a viable two-state interim solution, with the Right of Return. Some people think the Right of Return could be managed as a mainly symbolic acknowledgment, with only a few people actually returning to their original areas. The Islamic clause could then be dealt with in the long run if the interim two-state stage could ever be implemented with integrity. A simultaneous renunciation of both sides' maximalist aspirations might then be possible. What we see now is a mirroring of exclusive claims to the whole territory based on each side's scriptural interpretations.
Question: "You seem pessimistic about the chances for a two state solution. What do you think is needed to for a two state solution to be viable for both sides? Do you have much confidence in Abbas and Olmert?"
-- I have no confidence in Abbas and Olmert. Abbas refused to recognize the election results which gave Hamas a legislative majority. Any agreements he makes with Israel are likely to be divisive since he's basically a collaborator with Olmert and the US.
As for Olmert, I will just mention the war against Lebanon, the grinding down of Gaza, , hawkishness vs. Iran, and nuclear weapons. His two-state solution is on Israeli terms only, to rid themselves of the Palestinians and avoid the issue of voting rights for all Palestinians under Israeli control.
To be viable, a two-state solution has to assure the Palestinians that they will occupy a contiguous territory without the Israeli facts-on-the-ground settlements. That's not likely to be politically acceptable to any Israeli government. And Israel would also have to give up the goal, held by many (including, if I understand his comments correctly, Olmert), to rid its state of its Arab population while at the same time dealing constructively with the demand for a Palestinian Right of Return. As I read it, the theocratic state that Hamas wants has more room for Christians and Jews than the Israeli right's version of a Jewish state would have for Muslims.
That's why I'm pessimistic. It's hard to see what will satisfy both sides equally. (And I didn't even mention the status of Jerusalem....)
Question: "From your post, you seem to suggest that a one state solution is probably going to be opposed by Israel. Is it the whole of Israel, or only parts of Israel that would oppose this?"
-- I think it's clear that Israelis would overwhelming oppose a one-state solution. The one-state theorists and proponents are part of the miniscule left-wing peace movement. They have no leverage, no traction.
Question: "A question out of left field: what do both of you think of Shimon Peres?"
Shimon Peres? I agree with Eileen about his lying about nuclear weapons. I've never been a fan of the Oslo Accords -- I think they were stacked against the Palestinians. I think Peres is overrated as a man of peace. I go along with those who call him an opportunist, a hawk, and a typical colonialist.
Question: "If you support a one state solution, how do you allay Israeli fears of being overwhelmed by a larger Arab population?"
-- I don't think those fears can be allayed. That's why a one-state solution, whatever it's hypothetical merits, is a pipe-dream for now. But that's not to say that a mutually acceptable two-state solution is likely, either. Although I agree with Eileen that "End The Occupation" is the big thing, not the one or two state solution, I don't see it 'just happening' without some kind of agreement that could be called "a two-state solution".
"Sorry for all the questions."
-- Hey, good questions. I wish I knew more or knew something that would lead me to be more cheerful.
Thank you Eileen and Bill
Thank you both Eileen and Bill for answering my questions. Bill seems a bit more pessimistic about the situation now, Eileen seems to be more optimistic based on her meeting grassroots activists, but you both seem to have a similar take on the situation. Both of you seem pessimistic about the leaders of the country, but Eileen seems to see some hope in small grassroots movements in gradually changing people's minds.
I'm wondering: are there any lessons from the truce between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, or the peace between whites and blacks in South Africa that we could apply to the present conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians? It seems like the 3 conflicts dealt with similar issues: a minority population afraid of being overtaken by a larger population resorts to repressive measures to control the larger population; rage within a larger oppressed population denied political and economic rights that threatens to push them towards more violent reactions against an unjust system.
I love you Angelo!
You have an open heart and mind and ask such great questions.
You wrote:
"Eileen, it seems like the peace movement is made up of secular Jews in Israel. Are there significant numbers of more conservative Jews that are also sympathetic to the peace cause?
"I actually don't understand this link between Christians and the pro-occupation Israel. Would you explain that more.
"In South Africa, the anti-apartheid movement had leaders that they could rally around. Are there leaders that the peace movement respects that they respect and could rally around?"
The link between fundie Christians and pro-occupation is what the neo-con ideology of empire building, nationalism and arrogance is all about!
I tackle this in my second book and highly recommend to you all of Rev. Stephen Sizers books and the website:
http://www.christianzionism.org/
In Israel the secular justice and peacenik Jews are most definitely the minority, just as we justice and peacenik Christians in the USA are, but you know what Margaret Mead said:
"Never doubt that a few, thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world: Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
And Yes, there are leaders already leading the way in Israel Palestine, they are very committed and active, just not reported on by the MSM.
I cite ICAHD, Tayoush, B'tselem, and ex-IDF of Breaking the Silence.
As it is in the USA-or anywhere else- most people focus on themselves and their families and do not comprehend we are to be our brothers keepers.
Maybe this excerpt from the WAWA BLOG of July 31, 2007 will give you hope?
On the last day of my fifth trip to Israel Palestine, a religious Jew and former Infantry Lieutenant in the Israeli Defense Force/IDF who served six years in the occupied territories of Bethlehem, Hebron, Ramallah, Jenin and the Gaza Strip addressed over forty youth and a few committed middle aged and elderly supporters attending Sabeel's http://sabeel.org 2nd International Conference: 40 Years in the Wilderness...40 Years of Occupation...
Mikhael Manekin, discharged from the IDF in 2002 is now the Foreign Relations Manager of Breaking the Silence www.breakingthesilence.org.il which documents former IDF soldiers testimonies about the occupation and oppression of Palestinians, "I am a practicing Jew and in two weeks we go into the month of repentance; which requires acknowledging our sins. We cannot change things until we acknowledge our culpability.
"The problem is government policy that is implemented by young soldiers and whenever religion is involved, we will have fundamentalism. The Israeli peace and justice activists are less than 1% of Israeli society and anybody who is an activist is an optimist. You cannot do anything if you do not believe you can do something to change the situation. We have to remind ourselves that we are the minority; [it appears that] we are loosing, but we remind ourselves we are right!
"Everybody in Israel knows somebody who has served in the occupied territories. The situation in 2007 is worse than 2006 and it looks worse for 2008, but more and more activists-like Anarchists Against the Wall and Tayoush are actively working with Palestinians against the occupation, they are not afraid to travel in the occupied territories and are learning Arabic. Two, three years ago you wouldn't have heard anything; but now every week Israelis are getting arrested for fighting the occupation.
"A few years ago, the soldiers you have encountered at the checkpoints would have been me. Soldiers like myself who served during the second intifada, got our education on the job. You all have visited more places [the past nine days] than most Israelis ever have.
"Israeli's have no idea what is happening in the occupied territories.
"But, so far in 2007 we have given more Israeli's a tour through Hebron than we did in 2005 and 2006 combined. Hebron is a ghost town, the settlers are unbearable and every soldier who is stationed there understands the 600 settlers there are psychotic; insane.
"I became very opinionated while in the army, but I kept it all to myself. Nobody talks about it in the army and I was the commander and did not know until after I got out that one of the other soldiers in my unit was feeling the same way, until he gave his testimony.
"Israeli society wants you to believe you are a bad apple for speaking out because unless you trust the system, it will fall apart.
"Most Israelis who get out of the army leave the country and are probably all drugged out. They suffer post traumatic syndrome but we are the victimizers. My age group is getting the hell out of here or walling themselves off from society and are not involved in anything.
"Over 450 former soldiers have now given their testimonies and we don't publish any stories without the corroboration coming from another former soldier and the testimonies are kept anonymous.
"You have to understand you must preach to your own people; we want to shake up the comfortable people who may agree with us in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, but are not activists yet."
What Breaking the Silence does is break down this barrier of denial and they began with stories from Hebron, the most painful place I have ever been and one time through Hebron will last me my lifetime...
In June 2005, my guide was Jerry Levin, full-time volunteer with Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) who had once been CNN's Middle East bureau chief in the 1980's.
Jerry was a secular Jew married to Sis, a Christian, and since his miraculous escape from captivity he and Sis have dedicated their lives to the Palestinian cause for human rights.
Jerry was captured and held hostage in Lebanon by the Hezbollah for nearly a year, and experienced a mystical Christmas Eve, and was never the same.
Jerry is lightly built and sprouts bilateral hearing aids and he told me, "Every time I get ready to return to Palestine, everyone asks me, 'Aren't you afraid?' I reply, Of what, the Palestinians? No way! But when it comes to the Israelis soldiers, you bet I am!"
Hebron is where a few hundred Israeli settlers/colonists/squatters have disposed the indigenous Palestinians and are surrounded by three thousand IDF. The eighteen- to twenty-one-year-old soldiers patrol the streets with their weapons at the ready and turned Jerry and I away at the first checkpoint we came to. Jerry smiled as he told me, "Most of the soldiers don't like the CPTs. Whenever they won't let us through, we just go another way, and always, eventually, get where we want to go."
The narrow, winding stone streets of Hebron are centuries old, but in the 21st century, one side is Palestinian and the other Israeli, but their only connection to the other is a thick, deeply sagging netting strung above ones head that catches the huge rocks, shovels, electronic equipment, furniture, and all manner of debris that have been flung onto it by the settlers/colonists/squatters.
I asked Jerry if it ever gave way and hit Palestinians on the head and he responded, "That's the intention, but it gets cleaned out about every year or so. Come back in a few months, and this netting will be much closer to your head. The settlers just throw whatever they want onto the netting; they do what ever they want and get away with it. The CPT's run interference by nonviolent resistance; we get the children and woman to where they need to be going and back again. Sometimes, the settlers curse and stone us all; it keeps it interesting."
Jerry pointed out all the formerly Palestinian homes that the settlers have painted graffiti, such as "GAS THE ARABS" and Stars of David upon. The oppression affected me viscerally and I was nauseous all day and threw up all that night. I felt as if I had entered into every movie set and photograph of the Jewish ghettos before the Holocaust.
Ever since my first journey to Israel Palestine in June 2005, I have tried to break the silence about the undemocratic state of Israel on the world wide web. My target audience has always been uninformed and apathetic Christians, for as Mikkael said, we must preach to our own, even when our own will not listen.
The former Israeli soldiers in solidarity with Breaking the Silence who are trying to wake up their fellow citizens wrote:
"Since our discharge from the army, we all feel that we have become different. We feel that service in the occupied territories and the incidents we faced have distorted and harmed the moral values on which we grew up.
"We all agree that as long as Israeli society keeps sending its best people to military combat service in the occupied territories, it is extremely important that all of us, Israeli citizens, know the price which the generation who is fighting in the territories is paying, the impossible situations it is facing, the insanity it is confronting everyday, and the heavy burden it bears after being discharged from the IDF, a heavy burden that hasn't left us.
"That's why we decided to break the silence, because it's time to tell. Time to tell about everything that goes on there each and every day.
"We all served in the territories. Some served in Gaza, some in Hebron, some in Bethlehem and the rest served in other places. We all manned checkpoints, participated in patrols and arrests and took part in the war against terror. We all realized that the daily struggle against terror and the daily interaction with the civilian population has left us helpless. Our sense of justice was distorted, and so were our morality and emotions.
"The reality we experienced was made of: Innocent civilians being hurt, Kids not going to school because of the curfew, and parents who can�t bring food home because they can�t go to work.
"This reality has stayed us and will not go away. After discharge from the army, we decided that we shouldn't go on. We shouldn't forget what we ourselves did and what we witnessed. We decided to break the silence."
One of those who has testified also said, "There is a very clear and powerful connection between how much time you serve in the territories and how fucked in the head you get."
MORE:
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/about_e.asp
-------------------
You also asked:
"A question out of left field: what do both of you think of Shimon Peres?"
I know he is a liar.
In 1986 he stated on camera that Israel would not be the first state in the Mid East to have nuclear weapons.
This is a bald faced lie, for in 1986, Mordechai Vanunu proved to the world that Israel was already nuclear by taking the 60 odd photos documenting Israel's underground WMD Program.
Israel has yet to admit they have nukes, have never signed the NPT, have never allowed international inspectors in side the Dimona, yet locked Vanunu up for 18 yrs. and have held him nearly 4 more under house arrest forbidding him to speak to any foreigners.
He spoke to me and i hope you will spend some time listening to him on the 2005 and 2006 video interviews which are freely streaming on WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
BEFORE his appeal begins Jan. 8, 2008 fighting a 6 month jail sentence for interviews he gave in 2004.
-----------------------------
You asked:
"If you support a one state solution, how do you allay Israeli fears of being overwhelmed by a larger Arab population?"
One state or two states is not what i see as the main issue.
What i see is the 'fierce urgency of now' to END THE OCCUPATION and what i pray and hope is that ALL states and nations would uphold international law and the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights;
Only then, can there be peace on this earth.
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
Learning more about Israel/Palestine
Thanks for the post Eileen. As long as my wife doesn't find out, I'm o.k. I've learned a lot from these posts.
It's always bothered me about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Growing up, there were 3 big conflicts that I always heard about in the news: the Israel/Palestinian conflict; the conflict between whites and blacks in apartheid South Africa; and the conflict betweens Catholics and Protestants in North Ireland. Now all these years later, the Israel/Palestine conflict is the one that's still going on. I'm glad that peacenik secular Jews are working with Palestinians for peace and that groups like ICAHD, Tayoush, B'tselem, and ex-IDF of Breaking the Silence are fighting for peace. I don't know who they are, but I'll check it up.
Israel vomited out of the land
Eileen,
You are absolutely correct it was Israel's moral failings that got them booted out of the land.They were warned before they ever got to the land not to do the same as the inhabitants before them.
Leviticus 18:26-28 "Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, not any stranger among you:(For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you."
The interesting thing is that at least four of the six abominations listed in Leviticus 18 are constitutionally protected behaviors here in the United States. And at least two of those are steadfastly defended on this blog!
Don
Give Me A Break!
Hey Don, give it a rest, will ya? You're living in Troll City, my friend.
You don't have to be Fellini to figure out the anti-Semitism that is bubbling just beneath your surface.
No Moloch worshippers here
Don,
The abomination of sacrificing children to Moloch or as an act of worship to any other alleged god is not something that anyone here or in the USA is advocating or defending.
I think that to claim otherwise is to rip the Biblical words out of their religious context and thus obscure the nature of the conflict over abortion.
What are the other two in the Leviticus list of sexual prohibitions that rise to the level of being constitutionally protected?
Are you as strong in your rejection of sexual intercourse with a menstruating woman as you are of homosexuality? Would that be enough to cause Israel or us to be spewed out the land?
But why the emphasis on Leviticus to begin with? Lev. 20:22 says "You are therefore to keep all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them, so that the land to which I am bringing you to dwell in will not spew you out." All. Not some. Unless specifically superseded later. That still leaves many. And leaves some open to argument.
Prophetic interpretation does not trump justice
Conclusions drawn from prophetic interpretation needs to always be examinied through the lens of some unchanging and unfailing dimensions of the character of God and the principles that Christ brings into the equation. All nations,including Israel (perhaps especially Israel), are bound to the same righteous standards God holds up for all individuals. Our prophetic interpretations never trump the heart and integrity of God found in the words of the prophet Micah, "Do justly, love mercy and walk humbly.." Seems like Jesus had something to say about "loving your neighbor."
The Mosaic Law gives much instruction to the Jews about how to treat those non-Jews who dwell among them in the land. Justice and fairness predominates the mandates of God on these matters. Apartheid is a heinous sin and no Christian should ever turn a blind eye to it and likewise should never stand in support of it because of some fatalistic dispensational end times prophetic interpretation. The Bible indeed tells us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, but it never tells us to support robbery, oppression, ethnic cleansing, etc.
Christians should never endorse atrocity and should never try to justify such cruelty through prophetic interpretation. The canopy of God is held up by love, justice, love, peace, benevolence, love, mercy, and kindness. Did I mention love?
I will offer my prayers for the peace of Jerusalem without reservation. I will withhold my endorsement of every nation, including Israel, whose policies include apartheid. I pray for Israel to repent and to remove the boot heel off the neck of the Palestininan people.
We have an ever shrinking number of Christian kinsmen among the Palestinians who need our support.
Shrinking Numbers of Palestinians Christians
There is an excellent article in December's National Geograhphic on Bethlehem and the shrinking number of Palestinian Christians, if anyone is interested.
What Eileen Always Avoids....
...is telling us to what role groups such as Hamas are playing in driving the Palestinian Christians from their home towns. From what I hear, it is the primary reason.
The Torah Way
"From Moses to Jeremiah and Isaiah, the Prophets taught...that the Jewish claim on the land of Israel was totally contingent on the moral and spiritual life of the Jews who lived there, and that the land would, as the Torah tells us, 'vomit you out' if people did not live according to the highest moral vision of Torah. Over and over again, the Torah repeated its most frequently stated mitzvah [command]: "When you enter your land, do not oppress the stranger; the other, the one who is an outsider of your society, the powerless one and then not only 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself' but also 'you shall love the other.'" -Rabbi Lerner, TIKKUN Magazine, page 35, Sept./Oct. 2007
"What does God require? He has told you o'man!
Be just, be merciful, and walk humbly with your Lord." -Micah 6:8
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
and the Palestinians?
Do they also not have a right to the land?